6 ms·

As long as we keep buying stuff wrapped in plastic, someone needs to keep making more of it.

littlestymaar 2y ago
Of course, I buy things wrapped un plastic because I love plastic and not because there's no available alternative … So convenient to blame the consumer.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  Most people fail to understand how useful plastic is because they never lived in a time before plastics.
  - littlestymaar 2y ago
    “most people fail to understand how useful leaded gasoline is because they never lived in a time without it”
    - _flux 2y ago
      As I understand it, lead in gasoline was used for motor longetivity, but other approaches have been invented to reduce pollution. So now we use only (or just mostly?) unleaded gasoline, which is used basically the same as leaded. What's your microplastic-free alternative to replace most uses of plastic? Microplasticless plastic that would work for all plastic use cases doesn't exist, as far I know.
      - throwaway48476 2y ago
        It was to reduce knock which was solved with electronic fuel injection.
        littlestymaar 2y ago
        Idk what modern injection can do for that, but it wasn't even needed, the original solution was to use other additives instead of lead.
        serf 2y ago
        every modern injection system that has authority over ignition and cam timing can monitor knock via microphone and adjust accordingly.
      - littlestymaar 2y ago
        You don't need a one-size-fits-all solution to all problems at once. But most plastic use have alternative solutions, if you are willing to change industrial practices (plastic-less supply chains will look very different for instance).
        throwaway48476 2y ago
        The problem is plastic is not one thing but an entire category of materials. There are plenty of places plastics can be designed out but there's also an awful lot where it's never going to be possible to replace. For example operating rooms have huge trash bins because everything comes plastic wrapped for sterility.
        mattkrause 2y ago
        Even in ORs, there are options for using less plastic use. For example, drapes can be single-use (paper-lined plastic in a plastic pouch) or fabric (wrapped in more fabric and autoclaved). I agree that getting to zero plastic is probably impossible—-it has amazingly useful properties for some applications—-but it’s also used for convenience and other mundane reasons (e.g., less liability if you offload sterilization to the manufacturer).
        littlestymaar 2y ago
        > For example operating rooms have huge trash bins because everything comes plastic wrapped for sterility. First of all we don't need disposable plastic for that… And wrapping it in Kraft paper would work exactly the same way!
        _flux 2y ago
        There are, and we do use them, more and more every day (from my simple consumer point of view), but it's much more difficult to dictate that "everyone" must switch to non-microplastic solutions, like it seems to have been possible with gasoline. What would that kind of legislation look like? It would be bound be huge, have negative non-intended consequences, and loopholes. Maybe a global plastic tax could function as a guiding force, but even that has the negative consequence increasing the costs of stuff that just doesn't have alternatives. It would funnel money towards developing plastic-free products. But getting everyone onboard with that is difficult—and I presume it's difficult to put a fair plastic tax for imported products.
      - mrguyorama 2y ago
        >lead in gasoline was used for motor longetivity Nope. Tetra-Ethyl lead as a fuel additive, primarily for octane boosting, was invented as a "cheaper alternative" to what would normally be used to boost octane: Ethanol. Surely for only coincidental reasons, having a chemical product that they could patent and prevent anyone else from manufacturing made them a whole lot more money than using Ethanol which anyone could make and market and compete. Leaded gas was a fucking profit motivated thing. The point of us putting ethanol in gas is multifaceted, but not even remotely about climate change: The octane booster we used after we removed was MTBE. MTBE had a problem where it would constantly leak out of fuel storage and poison families, cause birth defects, you know, toxic shit. So we FINALLY just said fuck it, put ethanol in gas like we should have been doing since the 20s. Other effects it had: Immediately reduce US gasoline usage by 10%. Subsidy to farmers.
- throwaway05294 2y ago
  Unfortunately the consumer is the only one who can influence the manufacturers by choosing alternatives. Large companies rarely actually care about the environmental effects when they have a cheaper alternative. I think many underestimate the influence consumers can have on the manufacturers. In some product categories, they have an option to choose a better alternative. If more did that, the manufacturers in other industries would see that there is a first mover advantage where they can grow their market share by reducing plastic usage. More R&D would be spent finding alternatives and the world as a whole would be improved. But it all starts with us choosing alternatives whenever possible. If enough consumers do that, the other manufacturers will improve because it impacts their revenue.
  - jcynix 2y ago
    A large part of microplastics found in aquatic environments is abraison from car tires. So which alternative do you suggest? https://www.sciencenews.org/article/car-tires-and-brake-pads-produce-harmful-microplastics https://www.sciencenews.org/article/car-tires-and-brake-pads... https://theconversation.com/how-your-car-sheds-microplastics-into-the-ocean-thousands-of-miles-away-142614 https://theconversation.com/how-your-car-sheds-microplastics... https://microplastics.springeropen.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s43591-021-00008-w.pdf https://microplastics.springeropen.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s43...
    - throwaway05294 2y ago
      As I mentioned, the manufacturers will need to spend money on R&D to develop alternatives. Right now the tire manufacturers don't have any incentive because there's no financial benefit. Even though consumers don't have a choice when they buy tires today, other products have cleaner alternatives. If I was a manufacturer of tires and saw consumers consistently choosing cleaner products when possible, I would have an incentive to see if I could reduce the pollution, because I would gain market share. The first manufacturer would sell more tires and others would need to follow. Not enough consumers make this choice today to make up the cost of new technologies.
      - 2y ago
- alt227 2y ago
  I buy all my food loose and not wrapped in plastic, its really not hard just dont go to supermarkets.
  - croes 2y ago
    Those stores don't exist everywhere and usually the prices are higher.
    - zo1 2y ago
      But in a lot of other places, they're far cheaper than the supermarkets. It works the other way sometimes, and I think we need to examine why. My best off-the-cuff theory to it would be some sort of perverse government incentive. The same government that makes incentives that added all that extra driving, transportation, storage, packaging, etc to the "natural food" because they think farming and storing livestock within X-feet of a people-zoned area is dangerous and shouldn't be allowed. Next they complain "oh lets fix these food islands that we created in the first place" or "oh please let us regulate these evil companies that use so much bad plastic packaging because we told them not to sell food that "might" be off after expiry so they have to use plastic and other such devices to sell you absolutely pristine and non-contaminated food". The point in my rambling is that it's such a complicated problem, but the government sits at the heart of it. Both as a cause and a potential solution, unfortunately.

Of course, I buy things wrapped un plastic because I love plastic and not because there's no available alternative … So convenient to blame the consumer.

throwaway48476 2y ago
Most people fail to understand how useful plastic is because they never lived in a time before plastics.
- littlestymaar 2y ago
  “most people fail to understand how useful leaded gasoline is because they never lived in a time without it”
  - _flux 2y ago
    As I understand it, lead in gasoline was used for motor longetivity, but other approaches have been invented to reduce pollution. So now we use only (or just mostly?) unleaded gasoline, which is used basically the same as leaded. What's your microplastic-free alternative to replace most uses of plastic? Microplasticless plastic that would work for all plastic use cases doesn't exist, as far I know.
    - throwaway48476 2y ago
      It was to reduce knock which was solved with electronic fuel injection.
      - littlestymaar 2y ago
        Idk what modern injection can do for that, but it wasn't even needed, the original solution was to use other additives instead of lead.
        serf 2y ago
        every modern injection system that has authority over ignition and cam timing can monitor knock via microphone and adjust accordingly.
    - littlestymaar 2y ago
      You don't need a one-size-fits-all solution to all problems at once. But most plastic use have alternative solutions, if you are willing to change industrial practices (plastic-less supply chains will look very different for instance).
      - throwaway48476 2y ago
        The problem is plastic is not one thing but an entire category of materials. There are plenty of places plastics can be designed out but there's also an awful lot where it's never going to be possible to replace. For example operating rooms have huge trash bins because everything comes plastic wrapped for sterility.
        mattkrause 2y ago
        Even in ORs, there are options for using less plastic use. For example, drapes can be single-use (paper-lined plastic in a plastic pouch) or fabric (wrapped in more fabric and autoclaved). I agree that getting to zero plastic is probably impossible—-it has amazingly useful properties for some applications—-but it’s also used for convenience and other mundane reasons (e.g., less liability if you offload sterilization to the manufacturer).
        littlestymaar 2y ago
        > For example operating rooms have huge trash bins because everything comes plastic wrapped for sterility. First of all we don't need disposable plastic for that… And wrapping it in Kraft paper would work exactly the same way!
      - _flux 2y ago
        There are, and we do use them, more and more every day (from my simple consumer point of view), but it's much more difficult to dictate that "everyone" must switch to non-microplastic solutions, like it seems to have been possible with gasoline. What would that kind of legislation look like? It would be bound be huge, have negative non-intended consequences, and loopholes. Maybe a global plastic tax could function as a guiding force, but even that has the negative consequence increasing the costs of stuff that just doesn't have alternatives. It would funnel money towards developing plastic-free products. But getting everyone onboard with that is difficult—and I presume it's difficult to put a fair plastic tax for imported products.
    - mrguyorama 2y ago
      >lead in gasoline was used for motor longetivity Nope. Tetra-Ethyl lead as a fuel additive, primarily for octane boosting, was invented as a "cheaper alternative" to what would normally be used to boost octane: Ethanol. Surely for only coincidental reasons, having a chemical product that they could patent and prevent anyone else from manufacturing made them a whole lot more money than using Ethanol which anyone could make and market and compete. Leaded gas was a fucking profit motivated thing. The point of us putting ethanol in gas is multifaceted, but not even remotely about climate change: The octane booster we used after we removed was MTBE. MTBE had a problem where it would constantly leak out of fuel storage and poison families, cause birth defects, you know, toxic shit. So we FINALLY just said fuck it, put ethanol in gas like we should have been doing since the 20s. Other effects it had: Immediately reduce US gasoline usage by 10%. Subsidy to farmers.
throwaway05294 2y ago
Unfortunately the consumer is the only one who can influence the manufacturers by choosing alternatives. Large companies rarely actually care about the environmental effects when they have a cheaper alternative. I think many underestimate the influence consumers can have on the manufacturers. In some product categories, they have an option to choose a better alternative. If more did that, the manufacturers in other industries would see that there is a first mover advantage where they can grow their market share by reducing plastic usage. More R&D would be spent finding alternatives and the world as a whole would be improved. But it all starts with us choosing alternatives whenever possible. If enough consumers do that, the other manufacturers will improve because it impacts their revenue.
- jcynix 2y ago
  A large part of microplastics found in aquatic environments is abraison from car tires. So which alternative do you suggest? https://www.sciencenews.org/article/car-tires-and-brake-pads-produce-harmful-microplastics https://www.sciencenews.org/article/car-tires-and-brake-pads... https://theconversation.com/how-your-car-sheds-microplastics-into-the-ocean-thousands-of-miles-away-142614 https://theconversation.com/how-your-car-sheds-microplastics... https://microplastics.springeropen.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s43591-021-00008-w.pdf https://microplastics.springeropen.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s43...
  - throwaway05294 2y ago
    As I mentioned, the manufacturers will need to spend money on R&D to develop alternatives. Right now the tire manufacturers don't have any incentive because there's no financial benefit. Even though consumers don't have a choice when they buy tires today, other products have cleaner alternatives. If I was a manufacturer of tires and saw consumers consistently choosing cleaner products when possible, I would have an incentive to see if I could reduce the pollution, because I would gain market share. The first manufacturer would sell more tires and others would need to follow. Not enough consumers make this choice today to make up the cost of new technologies.
    - 2y ago
alt227 2y ago
I buy all my food loose and not wrapped in plastic, its really not hard just dont go to supermarkets.
- croes 2y ago
  Those stores don't exist everywhere and usually the prices are higher.
  - zo1 2y ago
    But in a lot of other places, they're far cheaper than the supermarkets. It works the other way sometimes, and I think we need to examine why. My best off-the-cuff theory to it would be some sort of perverse government incentive. The same government that makes incentives that added all that extra driving, transportation, storage, packaging, etc to the "natural food" because they think farming and storing livestock within X-feet of a people-zoned area is dangerous and shouldn't be allowed. Next they complain "oh lets fix these food islands that we created in the first place" or "oh please let us regulate these evil companies that use so much bad plastic packaging because we told them not to sell food that "might" be off after expiry so they have to use plastic and other such devices to sell you absolutely pristine and non-contaminated food". The point in my rambling is that it's such a complicated problem, but the government sits at the heart of it. Both as a cause and a potential solution, unfortunately.