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> This left me wondering if there is enough demand for smaller social networks with very limited visibility that can foster rich and insightful discussions (alt

> This left me wondering if there is enough demand for smaller social networks with very limited visibility that can foster rich and insightful discussions (although this sounds like forums from the nineties). And if it's possible to keep the sales people away, or at least invite-only. You can't keep sales people a.k.a phonies away it will always happen. Every underground subculture gets appropriated as soon as even one of these people shows up. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_punk_subculture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_punk_subculture Imagine you run into Patti Smith and her friends in the 70s, if you're lame you won't be staying long. In fact you might get punched in the face. There is proper gatekeeping. Once the scene grows even a little there's money to be made. A different sort shows up who understands the culture and likes the music OK but don't truly give a fuck it is about selling t-shirts and bootlegs for them. And/Or getting laid. They'll start promoting it to grow it bigger and make more money. That's when the real sharks show up and the original members start leaving. Later still normies shop your style at the mall with no idea what any of it means or where it came from. Sadly, can't punch people in the face over the internet. Even worse everything is all about forced inclusivity now. This ain't a technological problem.

astrange 2y ago
> Sadly, can't punch people in the face over the internet. Even worse everything is all about forced inclusivity now. Nobody is going to do that anymore because we don't all have lead poisoning from gasoline fumes.
- verticalscaler 2y ago
  wat?
  - astrange 2y ago
    If you're old enough you might remember Americans were much more violent from 1960 to 1995 or so and the crime rate was incredibly high in American cities, leading to what was called white flight. Now, if you work with young people (so-called zoomers), you'll notice they are absolutely not like this anymore. At least 30% of this was caused by everyone breathing leaded gasoline.
    - shrimp_emoji 2y ago
      But lead increases your testosterone! (Look it up.) Now, all you get is microplastics, which do the opposite. And testosterone makes you objectively cooler and better as a person. For example, violence is cool.
    - verticalscaler 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - astrange 2y ago
        Your problem is you're watching the news, don't do that. (The rate of news articles is pretty much never connected to how much crime there actually is.) NYC is more or less the safest place in the world; it's certainly the safest place in the US. And the remaining danger is getting hit by cars, not in the subway. It wasn't like this in 1990.
        verticalscaler 2y ago
        Your problem is that my punching over the internet device is still just a prototype. It isn't as bad as the literal dumpster fire 70s era either, sure, but good grief what a delusional take. Come visit.
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        Of course, people get randomly assaulted on the subway. NYC isn't that safe. However, every time someone gets assaulted on the subway these days, it's in the news, complete with cellphone camera video from multiple witnesses. Back in the 1960s, when violent stuff happened, there was not much record of it and it didn't get into the news unless it was particularly bad. Perception has really changed, along with information technology.
pavel_lishin 2y ago
In a small enough group chat, yes, you can - and you should.
jltsiren 2y ago
I've seen some communities thrive for decades. Their success seems to come down to a few ideas: Focus on the community itself, not on the people outside it. Underground is always defined relative to the mainstream, which isn't healthy for the community. Don't give the original members any special status. They either fit in, or they move on. The community must reinvent itself once in a while. The world moves on, and the original concept will eventually be obsolete. Keep the key institutions non-commercial and under the control of the actual community. People trying to make money from the community are not a threat. Turning the community into someone's business is.
- verticalscaler 2y ago
  That is very rare and admirable. Can you share more details? Perhaps without linking to them as to not ruin it. Only one I can think of is The Well. I don't see how you could ever recreate it.
  - jltsiren 2y ago
    Communities built around shared hobbies are often quite long-lived. Especially when the hobby is not too demanding and people can continue participating throughout their lives. I'm most familiar with those based on tabletop games and science fiction. You can find plenty of volunteer-run conventions that have been around for decades. That often implies that there is a thriving local community behind the event.
anal_reactor 2y ago
I think that your comment is spot-on
- verticalscaler 2y ago
  Thanks anal_reactor
hamasho 2y ago
Your comment reminds me of the video "All My Homies Hate Skrillex - A Story About What Happened with Dubstep (Reupload)". It's a rant about how the original Dubstep was created and developed from the passion and use of a minimalistic approach in the underground London club scene. Then it became the mainstream phenomenon, and people who didn't care about the original ideas got all the population and credit. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQHQhNq5Tek https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQHQhNq5Tek The original creator seems to have removed their account and this is reupload.
- verticalscaler 2y ago
  I approve. I've had this conversation over and over on what.cd back in the day. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war We can even get a little more meta and observe how this type of essay itself goes through the very same process and you end up with: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9IucBIoCzc0 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9IucBIoCzc0 It always happens, without fail, for every genre and subculture. We can only embrace the ephemeral.

astrange 2y ago

> Sadly, can't punch people in the face over the internet. Even worse everything is all about forced inclusivity now. Nobody is going to do that anymore because we don't all have lead poisoning from gasoline fumes.

verticalscaler 2y ago
wat?
- astrange 2y ago
  If you're old enough you might remember Americans were much more violent from 1960 to 1995 or so and the crime rate was incredibly high in American cities, leading to what was called white flight. Now, if you work with young people (so-called zoomers), you'll notice they are absolutely not like this anymore. At least 30% of this was caused by everyone breathing leaded gasoline.
  - shrimp_emoji 2y ago
    But lead increases your testosterone! (Look it up.) Now, all you get is microplastics, which do the opposite. And testosterone makes you objectively cooler and better as a person. For example, violence is cool.
  - verticalscaler 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - astrange 2y ago
      Your problem is you're watching the news, don't do that. (The rate of news articles is pretty much never connected to how much crime there actually is.) NYC is more or less the safest place in the world; it's certainly the safest place in the US. And the remaining danger is getting hit by cars, not in the subway. It wasn't like this in 1990.
      - verticalscaler 2y ago
        Your problem is that my punching over the internet device is still just a prototype. It isn't as bad as the literal dumpster fire 70s era either, sure, but good grief what a delusional take. Come visit.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      Of course, people get randomly assaulted on the subway. NYC isn't that safe. However, every time someone gets assaulted on the subway these days, it's in the news, complete with cellphone camera video from multiple witnesses. Back in the 1960s, when violent stuff happened, there was not much record of it and it didn't get into the news unless it was particularly bad. Perception has really changed, along with information technology.

pavel_lishin 2y ago

In a small enough group chat, yes, you can - and you should.

jltsiren 2y ago

I've seen some communities thrive for decades. Their success seems to come down to a few ideas: Focus on the community itself, not on the people outside it. Underground is always defined relative to the mainstream, which isn't healthy for the community. Don't give the original members any special status. They either fit in, or they move on. The community must reinvent itself once in a while. The world moves on, and the original concept will eventually be obsolete. Keep the key institutions non-commercial and under the control of the actual community. People trying to make money from the community are not a threat. Turning the community into someone's business is.

verticalscaler 2y ago
That is very rare and admirable. Can you share more details? Perhaps without linking to them as to not ruin it. Only one I can think of is The Well. I don't see how you could ever recreate it.
- jltsiren 2y ago
  Communities built around shared hobbies are often quite long-lived. Especially when the hobby is not too demanding and people can continue participating throughout their lives. I'm most familiar with those based on tabletop games and science fiction. You can find plenty of volunteer-run conventions that have been around for decades. That often implies that there is a thriving local community behind the event.

anal_reactor 2y ago

I think that your comment is spot-on

verticalscaler 2y ago
Thanks anal_reactor

hamasho 2y ago

Your comment reminds me of the video "All My Homies Hate Skrillex - A Story About What Happened with Dubstep (Reupload)". It's a rant about how the original Dubstep was created and developed from the passion and use of a minimalistic approach in the underground London club scene. Then it became the mainstream phenomenon, and people who didn't care about the original ideas got all the population and credit. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQHQhNq5Tek https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQHQhNq5Tek The original creator seems to have removed their account and this is reupload.

verticalscaler 2y ago
I approve. I've had this conversation over and over on what.cd back in the day. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war We can even get a little more meta and observe how this type of essay itself goes through the very same process and you end up with: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9IucBIoCzc0 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9IucBIoCzc0 It always happens, without fail, for every genre and subculture. We can only embrace the ephemeral.