8 ms·

Does anyone have the idea of escaping from HTML/CSS? As these specs are too complicated and not friendly for web developers as well. Maybe we could re-invent a

by bdahz 2y ago

Does anyone have the idea of escaping from HTML/CSS? As these specs are too complicated and not friendly for web developers as well. Maybe we could re-invent a browser engine without conforming to HTML/CSS specs? An (early) alternative spec/engine would be a Figma-compatible vector graphics spec[2] and its rendering engine[3]. It is called VeryGoodGraphics[1]. [1] https://verygoodgraphics.com/ https://verygoodgraphics.com/, the website is built with its own technology (wasm version). [2] https://docs.verygoodgraphics.com/specs/overview https://docs.verygoodgraphics.com/specs/overview [3] https://github.com/verygoodgraphics/vgg_runtime https://github.com/verygoodgraphics/vgg_runtime

Vermeulen 2y ago
Yeah - there really is a opportunity now to rethink browsers as just sandboxed rendering windows using WebAssembly + WebGPU. Could still have typical DOM rendering handled with Webassembly delivered by the web sites (ideally cached). The challenge is though still having standards and accessibility options. That VeryGoodGraphics example allows for no text selection - and doesn't at all handle zooming. Still though it'd be a good bottom up way for a new browser to disrupt Chrome
- coldpie 2y ago
  How would ad blocking work in this world? A browser without ad blocking is useless.
  - gwbas1c 2y ago
    How would ads work in this world? The advertising ecosystem relies on adding a 1-2 line JavaScript blurb to the page, and then the ads are added at display time.
robin_reala 2y ago
VeryGoodGraphics has no accessibility tree and no results when searching the documentation for “accessibility”, which makes it broadly immoral (or if you want to disagree with that, at least illegal to use it to build production systems in many locations). If you can’t get that right from the start, or even have plans for it, then you’re obsolete.
- eropple 2y ago
  Even if you don't care about that (and you should!), "you can't highlight text [without doing additional work that nobody will do because it wasn't an explicit KPI for them]" is itself really disappointing and bad. We escaped Flash. We shouldn't clamor to go back.
  - bdahz 2y ago
    The reasons to escape Flash are the performance and power-consumption issues, rather than accessibility. If you take browser as a document viewer then accessibility is critical. However if you take browser as a universal application platform, then accessibility is not necessary, right?
    - robin_reala 2y ago
      No? Why shouldn’t apps be accessible?
    - RussianCow 2y ago
      > However if you take browser as a universal application platform, then accessibility is not necessary, right? Are you really suggesting that people with disabilities shouldn't be able to use web apps?
    - bdahz 2y ago
      Sorry, I was just raising my question. Because in my country most app maker does not care about accessibility. Now I know.
- bdahz 2y ago
  If there is a VGG-native browser then accessibility is not so hard to implement. The awkward problem is that current VeryGoodGraphics is just a canvas node in HTML (using WebAssembly + WebGL). So adding accessibility support will be a nightmare technically.
RunSet 2y ago
https://permacomputing.net/smallnet/ https://permacomputing.net/smallnet/
locallost 2y ago
Lively Kernel was one such idea. https://youtu.be/gGw09RZjQf8?feature=shared https://youtu.be/gGw09RZjQf8?feature=shared
gwbas1c 2y ago
My opinion is that the rendering engine should be WASM specified in a header. This way the site provider can choose whatever engine they want, including possibly not even using HTML.
zellyn 2y ago
Lock Casey Muratori in a room until he designs the right API? He definitely believes the current one is the wrong API :-)
promiseofbeans 2y ago
Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/

by bdahz 2y ago

Vermeulen 2y ago

Yeah - there really is a opportunity now to rethink browsers as just sandboxed rendering windows using WebAssembly + WebGPU. Could still have typical DOM rendering handled with Webassembly delivered by the web sites (ideally cached). The challenge is though still having standards and accessibility options. That VeryGoodGraphics example allows for no text selection - and doesn't at all handle zooming. Still though it'd be a good bottom up way for a new browser to disrupt Chrome

coldpie 2y ago
How would ad blocking work in this world? A browser without ad blocking is useless.
- gwbas1c 2y ago
  How would ads work in this world? The advertising ecosystem relies on adding a 1-2 line JavaScript blurb to the page, and then the ads are added at display time.

robin_reala 2y ago

VeryGoodGraphics has no accessibility tree and no results when searching the documentation for “accessibility”, which makes it broadly immoral (or if you want to disagree with that, at least illegal to use it to build production systems in many locations). If you can’t get that right from the start, or even have plans for it, then you’re obsolete.

eropple 2y ago
Even if you don't care about that (and you should!), "you can't highlight text [without doing additional work that nobody will do because it wasn't an explicit KPI for them]" is itself really disappointing and bad. We escaped Flash. We shouldn't clamor to go back.
- bdahz 2y ago
  The reasons to escape Flash are the performance and power-consumption issues, rather than accessibility. If you take browser as a document viewer then accessibility is critical. However if you take browser as a universal application platform, then accessibility is not necessary, right?
  - robin_reala 2y ago
    No? Why shouldn’t apps be accessible?
  - RussianCow 2y ago
    > However if you take browser as a universal application platform, then accessibility is not necessary, right? Are you really suggesting that people with disabilities shouldn't be able to use web apps?
  - bdahz 2y ago
    Sorry, I was just raising my question. Because in my country most app maker does not care about accessibility. Now I know.
bdahz 2y ago
If there is a VGG-native browser then accessibility is not so hard to implement. The awkward problem is that current VeryGoodGraphics is just a canvas node in HTML (using WebAssembly + WebGL). So adding accessibility support will be a nightmare technically.

RunSet 2y ago

https://permacomputing.net/smallnet/ https://permacomputing.net/smallnet/

locallost 2y ago

Lively Kernel was one such idea. https://youtu.be/gGw09RZjQf8?feature=shared https://youtu.be/gGw09RZjQf8?feature=shared

gwbas1c 2y ago

My opinion is that the rendering engine should be WASM specified in a header. This way the site provider can choose whatever engine they want, including possibly not even using HTML.

zellyn 2y ago

Lock Casey Muratori in a room until he designs the right API? He definitely believes the current one is the wrong API :-)

promiseofbeans 2y ago

Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/