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> Apart from that, saying that women did not contribute enough to the Internet, is like saying black people did not contribute enough to the invention of cars;

> Apart from that, saying that women did not contribute enough to the Internet, is like saying black people did not contribute enough to the invention of cars; it's mostly true, but it could be argued that that's because they were an oppressed group. That is indeed an interesting juxtaposition, and I'd particularly note the use of the word "enough." That would suggest that in discussions on the history of technology, it is implied that there is some arbitrary threshold at which mentions of the contributions of a minority group (not necessarily an identity minority; i.e. in a women-dominated field you'd say the minority is the men, etc.) will be disqualified. For instance, it is indeed "mostly true" that black people did not make many contributions to the automotive industry or its technological development. Richard Spikes' contribution of turn signals (http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp) is perhaps notable or even significant, but not necessarily critical, so this could serve as an example of that statement. Does that mean that the hypothetical phrase "White men invented the modern automobile" in a hypothetical article about a black man being ostracized from the auto industry in 2012 is racist? Or is it merely an acknowledgment of the fact that white men get the credit because they structured the industry to give it to them, by excluding everyone else? Or is it both?

lomegor 14y ago
No, it's not racist. When you use it to say that black people don't know anything about cars or that they can't influence the future of that, then yes, it is.
cantastoria 14y ago
That would suggest that in discussions on the history of technology, it is implied that there is some arbitrary threshold... But there's nothing arbitrary here, we know who invented the Internet. None of them where women. The argument that women could have contributed but didn't "because they were an oppressed group" is just an absurd couterfactual. Who knows what would have happened? You can say anything you want... Richard Spikes' contribution of turn signals... Richard Spikes invented the turn signal. Full stop. Saying he contributed to the invention of the automobile is as absurd as saying that Edison or Tesla contributed to the invention of the turn signal. No one would say that because the turn signal stands on it's own. Using your line of reasoning, Richard Spikes invented the turn signal with contributions from who knows how many women and other minorities. Or is it merely an acknowledgment of the fact that white men get the credit because they structured the industry to give it to them, by excluding everyone else? That doesn't mean women should get a historical "participation trophy" just for being somewhere and doing something in computing while the actual inventors where developing the Internet. It's insulting to them and women (and Al Gore...).

lomegor 14y ago

No, it's not racist. When you use it to say that black people don't know anything about cars or that they can't influence the future of that, then yes, it is.

cantastoria 14y ago

That would suggest that in discussions on the history of technology, it is implied that there is some arbitrary threshold... But there's nothing arbitrary here, we know who invented the Internet. None of them where women. The argument that women could have contributed but didn't "because they were an oppressed group" is just an absurd couterfactual. Who knows what would have happened? You can say anything you want... Richard Spikes' contribution of turn signals... Richard Spikes invented the turn signal. Full stop. Saying he contributed to the invention of the automobile is as absurd as saying that Edison or Tesla contributed to the invention of the turn signal. No one would say that because the turn signal stands on it's own. Using your line of reasoning, Richard Spikes invented the turn signal with contributions from who knows how many women and other minorities. Or is it merely an acknowledgment of the fact that white men get the credit because they structured the industry to give it to them, by excluding everyone else? That doesn't mean women should get a historical "participation trophy" just for being somewhere and doing something in computing while the actual inventors where developing the Internet. It's insulting to them and women (and Al Gore...).