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I'm very interested to see independent testing of cores without SMT/hyperthreading. Of course it's one less function for the hardware and thread scheduler to w

I'm very interested to see independent testing of cores without SMT/hyperthreading. Of course it's one less function for the hardware and thread scheduler to worry about. But hyperthreading was a useful way to share resources between multiple threads that had light-to-intermediate workloads. Synthetic benchmarks might show an improvement but I'm interested to see what everyday workloads, like web browsing while streaming a video, will react.

adrian_b 2y ago
I was surprised that disabling SMT has improved by a few percents the Geekbench 6 multi-threaded results on a Zen 3 (5900X) CPU. While there are also other tasks where SMT does not bring advantages, for the compilation of a big software project SMT does bring an obvious performance improvement, of about 20% for the same Zen 3 CPU. In any case, Intel has said that they have designed 2 versions of the Lion Cove core, one without SMT for laptop/desktop hybrid CPUs and one with SMT for server CPUs with P cores (i.e. for the successor of Granite Rapids, which will be launched later this year, using P-cores similar to those of Meteor Lake).
- papichulo2023 2y ago
  Probably because the benchmark is not using all cores so the cores hit the cache more often.
dagmx 2y ago
Generally HT/SMT has never been favored for high utilization needs or low wattage needs. On the high utilization end, stuff like offline rendering or even some realtime games, would have significant performance degradation when HT/SMT are enabled. It was incredibly noticeable when I worked in film. And on the low wattage end, it ends up causing more overhead versus just dumping the jobs on an E core.
- The_Colonel 2y ago
  > And on the low wattage end, it ends up causing more overhead versus just dumping the jobs on an E core. For most of the HT's existence there weren't any E cores which conflicts with your "never" in the first sentence.
  - dagmx 2y ago
    It doesn’t because a lot of low wattage silicon doesn’t support HT/SMT anyway. The difference is that now low wattage doesn’t have to mean low performance, and getting back that performance is better suited to E cores than introducing HT.
    - The_Colonel 2y ago
      > It doesn’t Saying "no" doesn't magically remove your contradiction. E cores didn't exist in laptop/PC/server CPUs before 2022 and using HT was a decent way to increase capacity to handle many (e.g. IO) threads without expensive context switches. I'm not saying E cores are a bad solution, but somehow you're trying to erase historical context of HT (or more likely just sloppy writing which you don't want to admit).
      - dagmx 2y ago
        I’ve explained what I meant. You’ve interjected your own interpretation of my comment and then gotten huffy about it. We could politely discuss it or you can continue being rude by making accusations of sloppy writing and denials.
        The_Colonel 2y ago
        No, you haven't explained the contradiction, you just talk over it. Before E cores were a thing, HT was a decent approach to cheaply support more low utilization threads.
- jeffbee 2y ago
  Backend-bound workloads that amount to hours of endless multiplication are not that common. For workloads that are just grab-bags of hundreds of unrelated tasks on a machine, which describes the entire "cloud" thing and most internal crud at every company, HT significantly increases the apparent capacity of the machine.
mmaniac 2y ago
The need for hyperthreading has diminished with increasing core counts and shrinking power headroom. You can just run those tasks on E cores now and save energy.
pjmlp 2y ago
Since side-channel attacks became a common thing, there is hardly a reason to keep hyperthreading around. It was a product of its time, a way to get cheap multi-cores when getting real cores was too expensive for regular consumer products. Besides the security issues, for high performance workloads they have always been an issue, stealing resources across shared CPU units.
- sapiogram 2y ago
  > there is hardly a reason to keep hyperthreading around. Performance is still a reason. Anecdote: I have a pet project that involves searching for chess puzzles, and hyperthreading improves throughput 22%. Not massive, but definitely not nothing.
  - magnio 2y ago
    You mean 4 cores 8 threads give 22% more throughput than 8 cores 8 threads or 4 cores 4 threads?
    - rbanffy 2y ago
      Remember core to core coordination takes longer than between threads of the same core.
    - sapiogram 2y ago
      4c/8t gives more throughput than 4c/4t.
      - hajile 2y ago
        There are definitely workloads where turning off SMT improves performance. SMT is a crutch. If your frontend is advanced enough to take advantage of the majority of your execution ports, SMT adds no value. SMT only adds value when your frontend can't use your execution ports, but at that point, maybe you're better off with two more simple cores anyway. With Intel having small e-cores, it starts to become cheaper to add a couple e-cores that guarantee improvement than to make the p-core larger.

adrian_b 2y ago

I was surprised that disabling SMT has improved by a few percents the Geekbench 6 multi-threaded results on a Zen 3 (5900X) CPU. While there are also other tasks where SMT does not bring advantages, for the compilation of a big software project SMT does bring an obvious performance improvement, of about 20% for the same Zen 3 CPU. In any case, Intel has said that they have designed 2 versions of the Lion Cove core, one without SMT for laptop/desktop hybrid CPUs and one with SMT for server CPUs with P cores (i.e. for the successor of Granite Rapids, which will be launched later this year, using P-cores similar to those of Meteor Lake).

papichulo2023 2y ago
Probably because the benchmark is not using all cores so the cores hit the cache more often.

dagmx 2y ago

Generally HT/SMT has never been favored for high utilization needs or low wattage needs. On the high utilization end, stuff like offline rendering or even some realtime games, would have significant performance degradation when HT/SMT are enabled. It was incredibly noticeable when I worked in film. And on the low wattage end, it ends up causing more overhead versus just dumping the jobs on an E core.

The_Colonel 2y ago
> And on the low wattage end, it ends up causing more overhead versus just dumping the jobs on an E core. For most of the HT's existence there weren't any E cores which conflicts with your "never" in the first sentence.
- dagmx 2y ago
  It doesn’t because a lot of low wattage silicon doesn’t support HT/SMT anyway. The difference is that now low wattage doesn’t have to mean low performance, and getting back that performance is better suited to E cores than introducing HT.
  - The_Colonel 2y ago
    > It doesn’t Saying "no" doesn't magically remove your contradiction. E cores didn't exist in laptop/PC/server CPUs before 2022 and using HT was a decent way to increase capacity to handle many (e.g. IO) threads without expensive context switches. I'm not saying E cores are a bad solution, but somehow you're trying to erase historical context of HT (or more likely just sloppy writing which you don't want to admit).
    - dagmx 2y ago
      I’ve explained what I meant. You’ve interjected your own interpretation of my comment and then gotten huffy about it. We could politely discuss it or you can continue being rude by making accusations of sloppy writing and denials.
      - The_Colonel 2y ago
        No, you haven't explained the contradiction, you just talk over it. Before E cores were a thing, HT was a decent approach to cheaply support more low utilization threads.
jeffbee 2y ago
Backend-bound workloads that amount to hours of endless multiplication are not that common. For workloads that are just grab-bags of hundreds of unrelated tasks on a machine, which describes the entire "cloud" thing and most internal crud at every company, HT significantly increases the apparent capacity of the machine.

mmaniac 2y ago

The need for hyperthreading has diminished with increasing core counts and shrinking power headroom. You can just run those tasks on E cores now and save energy.

pjmlp 2y ago

Since side-channel attacks became a common thing, there is hardly a reason to keep hyperthreading around. It was a product of its time, a way to get cheap multi-cores when getting real cores was too expensive for regular consumer products. Besides the security issues, for high performance workloads they have always been an issue, stealing resources across shared CPU units.

sapiogram 2y ago
> there is hardly a reason to keep hyperthreading around. Performance is still a reason. Anecdote: I have a pet project that involves searching for chess puzzles, and hyperthreading improves throughput 22%. Not massive, but definitely not nothing.
- magnio 2y ago
  You mean 4 cores 8 threads give 22% more throughput than 8 cores 8 threads or 4 cores 4 threads?
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    Remember core to core coordination takes longer than between threads of the same core.
  - sapiogram 2y ago
    4c/8t gives more throughput than 4c/4t.
    - hajile 2y ago
      There are definitely workloads where turning off SMT improves performance. SMT is a crutch. If your frontend is advanced enough to take advantage of the majority of your execution ports, SMT adds no value. SMT only adds value when your frontend can't use your execution ports, but at that point, maybe you're better off with two more simple cores anyway. With Intel having small e-cores, it starts to become cheaper to add a couple e-cores that guarantee improvement than to make the p-core larger.