7 ms·

Ask HN: Why Is Nobody Hiring Juniors?

17 points by cybernautique 2y ago

I have 2 years of experience and a degree in computer science. Why is it so hard to find a job as a junior?

cratermoon 2y ago
Companies don't want to train or mentor. They want to hire someone "to hit the ground running from day 1" for a specific technology stack or domain. The idea that they could hire a good junior programmer and train them up on whatever their specific needs are seems to have disappeared in the software development industry.
- catchnear4321 2y ago
  if everyone is a senior, surely we can flatten the hierarchy and minimize waste. but no two companies taste the same. instead of “wasting time” on mentoring a junior on how to work at this company, lots of top-heavy meetings where seniors discuss how they worked at the last one.
- moomoo11 2y ago
  Nah interest rates and tax changes just make that not feasible anymore. Honestly imo as someone who had a high TC we really need to lower the expectations that a lot of people have about salary. I think we should scale back to 100k for juniors. Senior and above should be a meaningful title and pay double a junior salary. Just talking base. Tired of seeing 5-6 engineer levels where most people fuck around while 10% of the org carries everyone else.
  - marto1 2y ago
    > Tired of seeing 5-6 engineer levels where most people fuck around while 10% of the org carries everyone else. As long as nepotism(both direct and indirect) exists this will always be the case.
codegeek 2y ago
Degree doesn't matter much except for your 1st job may be. Since you have 2 years of experience, question is what is that experience in ? Only then we can give you a better answer on why is it so hard to find a job. But in general, employers prefer experience and that is a fact. Due to the nature of employment these days where there is no loyalty on both sides, no one wants to "invest" in a junior anymore. May be very few places. Here is my suggestion on how to stand out as a Junior: - Have a kick ass Resume that is not more than 1 Page where you list your skills/jobs/learnings clearly - If you worked for 2 years but have changed 5 jobs, that is not a great indicator for a future employer that you will be reliable. Not sure in your case but as a junior, you need to stay at once place at least 3-4 years in the early years because anything less, you are not exposed to real world problems. - Be willing to work in an office and relocate wherever. This may be controversial in 2024 to mention but in my experience and opinion, juniors need to learn with their peers/seniors in person and actually lose out if everyone is remote. - If you are willing to work for startups or very small companies, make a list and reach out to the founder's directly (email/linkedin/twitter etc). Make a case for why you. If you have a profile with anything interesting, you may get an opportunity for at least an interview. - Always respond quickly to any emails you get from potential employers. Send a thank you email post interview if you do have an interview. Call me old school but if I interviewed 2 people and if everything else was equal, I would prefer the person who bothered to send a thank you email. Thank you is not just being grateful etc but also about summarizing what you learned in the interview about the team/company/product and why you would be excited to work with them. - Find recruiters on Linkedin by keeping your profile up to date. Sometimes a profile update can trigger you bumping up the queue in recruiter view. - Reach out to people you know who are in higher positions and ask for advice if they are willing. All the best
danielPort9 2y ago
Don’t sell yourself as junior. Companies blindly hire anyone who knows how to sell themselves.
- pixodaros 2y ago
  The problem is that if you have 2 years of experience and the job wants 5 to 7 how to compete with all the laid-off people with 10 years of experience
  - tuckerpo 2y ago
    You'd be flabbergasted to learn how many candidates just blatantly lie on their resume. I don't mean pretending to know Scala, I'm talking _years_ of vapor-experience at fake companies. And these people get hired all the time.
    - hnhn34 2y ago
      How do they get away with it? Most companies I’ve applied to run background checks and ask for references. The last one I was at refused to send an offer letter until my previous employer answered their calls.
      - tuckerpo 2y ago
        You pay your friends or a third party to LARP as a company/manager/whoever. An LLC is cheap to open and sliding your buddy a $20 for a 15 minute phone call is a no-brainer. I am not condoning this nor am I speaking from personal experience, but this is absolutely a real thing that happens a lot more than you might like to believe.
tmaly 2y ago
I think it is the economy. Companies have been firing and scaling back hiring. Junior positions are usually the first to go.
leandot 2y ago
There is much advice on the web that you should change jobs regularly to get salary raises fast. It is potentially a good advice if you are very good at what you do and your employer is not investing enough to reward you properly. But I’ve seen many cases where a mediocre developer finds a slightly better paying job and your 1+ year investment in training and teaching goes down the drain. Also with LLMs you usually achieve the same as 3-4 juniors. I am very much pro-training and teaching juniors but there is (was at least) a sense of entitlement and lack of commitment that is detrimental to those efforts.
ldjkfkdsjnv 2y ago
Mid level engineers make like 40k more and are twice as efficient

17 points by cybernautique 2y ago

I have 2 years of experience and a degree in computer science. Why is it so hard to find a job as a junior?

Companies don't want to train or mentor. They want to hire someone "to hit the ground running from day 1" for a specific technology stack or domain. The idea that they could hire a good junior programmer and train them up on whatever their specific needs are seems to have disappeared in the software development industry.

catchnear4321 2y ago
if everyone is a senior, surely we can flatten the hierarchy and minimize waste. but no two companies taste the same. instead of “wasting time” on mentoring a junior on how to work at this company, lots of top-heavy meetings where seniors discuss how they worked at the last one.
moomoo11 2y ago
Nah interest rates and tax changes just make that not feasible anymore. Honestly imo as someone who had a high TC we really need to lower the expectations that a lot of people have about salary. I think we should scale back to 100k for juniors. Senior and above should be a meaningful title and pay double a junior salary. Just talking base. Tired of seeing 5-6 engineer levels where most people fuck around while 10% of the org carries everyone else.
- marto1 2y ago
  > Tired of seeing 5-6 engineer levels where most people fuck around while 10% of the org carries everyone else. As long as nepotism(both direct and indirect) exists this will always be the case.

codegeek 2y ago

Degree doesn't matter much except for your 1st job may be. Since you have 2 years of experience, question is what is that experience in ? Only then we can give you a better answer on why is it so hard to find a job. But in general, employers prefer experience and that is a fact. Due to the nature of employment these days where there is no loyalty on both sides, no one wants to "invest" in a junior anymore. May be very few places. Here is my suggestion on how to stand out as a Junior: - Have a kick ass Resume that is not more than 1 Page where you list your skills/jobs/learnings clearly - If you worked for 2 years but have changed 5 jobs, that is not a great indicator for a future employer that you will be reliable. Not sure in your case but as a junior, you need to stay at once place at least 3-4 years in the early years because anything less, you are not exposed to real world problems. - Be willing to work in an office and relocate wherever. This may be controversial in 2024 to mention but in my experience and opinion, juniors need to learn with their peers/seniors in person and actually lose out if everyone is remote. - If you are willing to work for startups or very small companies, make a list and reach out to the founder's directly (email/linkedin/twitter etc). Make a case for why you. If you have a profile with anything interesting, you may get an opportunity for at least an interview. - Always respond quickly to any emails you get from potential employers. Send a thank you email post interview if you do have an interview. Call me old school but if I interviewed 2 people and if everything else was equal, I would prefer the person who bothered to send a thank you email. Thank you is not just being grateful etc but also about summarizing what you learned in the interview about the team/company/product and why you would be excited to work with them. - Find recruiters on Linkedin by keeping your profile up to date. Sometimes a profile update can trigger you bumping up the queue in recruiter view. - Reach out to people you know who are in higher positions and ask for advice if they are willing. All the best

danielPort9 2y ago

Don’t sell yourself as junior. Companies blindly hire anyone who knows how to sell themselves.

pixodaros 2y ago
The problem is that if you have 2 years of experience and the job wants 5 to 7 how to compete with all the laid-off people with 10 years of experience
- tuckerpo 2y ago
  You'd be flabbergasted to learn how many candidates just blatantly lie on their resume. I don't mean pretending to know Scala, I'm talking _years_ of vapor-experience at fake companies. And these people get hired all the time.
  - hnhn34 2y ago
    How do they get away with it? Most companies I’ve applied to run background checks and ask for references. The last one I was at refused to send an offer letter until my previous employer answered their calls.
    - tuckerpo 2y ago
      You pay your friends or a third party to LARP as a company/manager/whoever. An LLC is cheap to open and sliding your buddy a $20 for a 15 minute phone call is a no-brainer. I am not condoning this nor am I speaking from personal experience, but this is absolutely a real thing that happens a lot more than you might like to believe.

tmaly 2y ago

I think it is the economy. Companies have been firing and scaling back hiring. Junior positions are usually the first to go.

leandot 2y ago

There is much advice on the web that you should change jobs regularly to get salary raises fast. It is potentially a good advice if you are very good at what you do and your employer is not investing enough to reward you properly. But I’ve seen many cases where a mediocre developer finds a slightly better paying job and your 1+ year investment in training and teaching goes down the drain. Also with LLMs you usually achieve the same as 3-4 juniors. I am very much pro-training and teaching juniors but there is (was at least) a sense of entitlement and lack of commitment that is detrimental to those efforts.

ldjkfkdsjnv 2y ago

Mid level engineers make like 40k more and are twice as efficient