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Psychological tricks rich people use to look generous without spending more

95 points by Kortaggio 2y ago

Quinzel 2y ago
I am not “rich”, but a psychological trick I use when I’m out with one or two friends is that I always make sure I buy the first drink, or first entree etc. Basically I just make sure that I provide the first “gift”. The reason being that I know that I will most likely get back in return favours that far exceed what I initially fronted up with. The most recent example of me doing this was Friday night. I paid $6 for my friends drink, and then in return, he bought me dinner, and then also paid for me to go bowling. So in return for my $6 spent, I got about $50 of value in return. I been doing this since I was a kid. I grew up in poverty, and I think it’s like a behavioural adaptation I acquired because it was a way for me to get things I needed. I knew as a kid, that adults valued generosity. I didn’t have a lot to give because I was poor, so what I would do instead was craft handmade gifts, pick flowers for people, write nicely worded letters to people, or I would do chores for random people without being asked, and often I found people would return the favour by providing something in return. It wasn’t until I studied social psychology as an elective in my first degree that I realised I was using the rule of reciprocity to gain an advantage. Since realising the social convention behind it, I still do it to my advantage, but I would say now days, I do do it with more intention - therefore there are times where I do not exploit this human vulnerability because I know I am actually socially more advantaged than the other person. When I am in social situations where I know someone is far wealthier than I am, instead of offering them tangible gifts like buying a drink, I actually prefer to stroke their ego’s, and make them feel interesting and important, and I also am happy to allow them to feel socially superior to me. I don’t care if they view me as lower in the pecking order, because as long as they think that I admire them, they’re more likely to provide gifts, like buying me drinks etc… again, it’s an adaptation of the reciprocity thing, and something I learned to do as a kid.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- mycologos 2y ago
  Having this transactional a view of interactions doesn't sound fun. Is it something you're trying to change?
  - etrautmann 2y ago
    I agree. I enjoy buying a friend a drink or a meal because giving something to someone is both nice and fun and makes you feel good as a result.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- jwilber 2y ago
  This reads like some Patrick Bateman self-styled narrative. I suspect in reality this behavior is extremely obvious and off-putting. About as effective a psychological trick as the kid who just finished reading "How to Win Friends & Influence People" repeating your first name twenty times in a conversation. In other words, it just comes off weird and likely hurts more than it helps any meaningful relationships.
  - russelldjimmy 2y ago
    “Your compliment was sufficient, Louis” ;)
  - Johanx64 2y ago
    The behaviour is extremely obvious and off-putting if you're not good at it and you're forcing it. Or if you start doing it when you're halfway through life lived as a stingy bitter asshole (by no fault of your own necessarily, you just grew up in poverty with people made of same cloth), your attempts most likely will feel awkward and unnatural. Since the person has practiced these strategies since early childhood, he would do these things naturally and flawlessly. You wouldn't be able to tell if it's genuine or not, because he has ALWAYS done this, you wouldn't know a different version of this person, or catch them being anything but, because they always have bought the first drink, have always been nice and a good conversationalist (which 90% of the time means, shut up and attentively listen to other person and 10% of time asking questions to make the other person open up about their passions and interests), and would always remember everyone they meet by their first name regardless of their statute or position. The behavior becomes a genuine, well oiled habit, a natural. You can only catch a "fake" if it's situational and your behaviour completely changes depending on who you interact with or well... if you tell people on the internet about it. Social relations and human behavior is transactional regardless if you're aware of it or not. People really do like to bury their head in the sand and pretend that it isn't though and that there's some sort of special magical fairy dust going on in social relations.
    - seoulmetro 2y ago
      This is wrong. Manipulating friends with actual physical items never goes unnoticed as we attach those to our closest relations subconsciously. To think that someone can scam you without you knowing because they always scam you is hilarious when talking in the context of a close friend taking from you.
- russelldjimmy 2y ago
  It sounds like you have figured out a way to get what you want materially. It seems to be working well for you. However, like the other commenter pointed out, it does seem like a transactional way to view things. It sounds like such a view was very helpful to you in your childhood, which - as you mentioned - was in poverty, and I can imagine that this makes one focus their efforts and attention intensely on gaining material benefits. The question now is - is your life still demanding this narrow focus, or is it possible to relax this and start to enjoy the more intangible things in life? “If all one has is a hammer…” - you know how it goes :) Instead of seeing someone else’s generosity as a way to gain material benefit, can it be appreciated for just the generosity alone? Can the act of buying someone that “first gift” be enjoyed for the look of joy and surprise in their expression? It feels great to make someone’s day, and this is only possible when one’s attention is not focused on expecting something in return. A tangential thought: Sometimes people are not used to receiving gifts and they might be “overgenerous” in return because they got flustered at receiving a gift so suddenly. It’s not a positive feeling for them and the act can start to feel like “ransom” for them after some point. This is not your problem of course :) but one can become sensitive to such things only when one’s attention is not focused on “what will I get out of this transaction?”
  - Quinzel 2y ago
    > sometimes people are not used to receiving gifts and they might be “overgenerous” in return because they got flustered…” This is something I had not considered to be honest, but is a great point and something I shall take on board.
    - Johanx64 2y ago
      I hated receiving gifs when I was broke/poor with passion. It basically works like this: 1. I receive a gift of 50$ usually spent very sub-optimally. 2. Now I have to spend ~50$ buying a gift in turn. The end result: someone buying me gift for 50$ is equivalent to forcing a bad 50$ purchase upon me OR forcing me to feel bad and potentially be perceived as ungrateful/unreciprocating.
      - deleted 2y ago
- torginus 2y ago
  I dunno why but for me, people don't seem to reciprocate anything nice I do for them (or buy for them). To be clear I don't expect the favors I do to be returned to me in a transactional manner, but I'd love to experience a random act of thoughtfulness out of the blue from the people I did nice things for.
  - tsunamifury 2y ago
    Different circles act differently. In grad school every student was stringy and would take and never return. After I worked in tech everyone was quite generous.
    - torginus 2y ago
      Funnily enough, I don't think it's a money issue - I think that people have adopted such a consumerist, transactional mindset, that they can't distinguish the difference of services provided to them by the system at the swipe of their credit cards and the things other people put effort into (who are under absolutely no obligation to do so). It's the same transactional mindset view of 'what can you do for me' that's outlined in the top comment. Which is a foolish way to view the world imo, as friendships are much more difficult to acquire than money, but it is what it is.
      - tsunamifury 2y ago
        What’s funny is I was making the same point. I went to grad school with a lot of selfish asshole. But at work I had a pretty nice group of friends.
    - interludead 2y ago
      It's a life of a poor student
- geysersam 2y ago
  In my experience people do notice if they're spending more than their friends when buying beers and dinners and such. Your friends are probably not mentioning it because it's a bit awkward and they don't want to make you embarrassed, because they care about you.
- whoknowsidont 2y ago
  There is zero chance they don't realize what you're doing.
- leetcrew 2y ago
  I'm not sure this is as clever as you think. the other people in your stories almost certainly notice what you're doing. decent people tend to look for ways to help out their less fortunate companions. in this situation, it is totally normal (though not necessarily expected) for the recipient to offer something of token (ie, lesser) value in exchange. it helps everyone avoid overtly acknowledging the disparity in means. what they may not realize is that you are being intentionally manipulative. I'm sure they would be very disappointed to learn that you perceive this as winning some sort of game while they are being intentionally generous with you.
- fragmede 2y ago
  People aren't idiots and can do the math for themselves. They're not calling you out on it because you grew up poor and think you still are.
- adolph 2y ago
  > the rule of reciprocit You might be interested in Pre-suasion by Cialdini. Of special note is Cialdini’s ideas about ethical use of the techniques. https://www.amazon.com/Pre-Suasion-Revolutionary-Way-Influence-Persuade/dp/1501109804/ https://www.amazon.com/Pre-Suasion-Revolutionary-Way-Influen...
- seoulmetro 2y ago
  That's just tricking your friends and being a bad friend. Most normal friends swap the roles so that next time you buy the meal and they grab the drink. This sounds like a joke post based on how bad you are at human interaction but somehow studied psychology.
jc6 2y ago
This stuff their assistants do for them. To understand how they use signalling be aware of The Theory of the Leisure Class.
- SnorkelTan 2y ago
  Surprised a 3 letter username is still available on hn…
  - azq 2y ago
    why? 36^3 = 46,656 and also no one cares as much as they do for .com etc.
- readthenotes1 2y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_consumption https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_consumption I'm more devoted to conspicuous leisure, but waldt
osigurdson 2y ago
Author assumes the only reason people buy a truck is for "signalling".
- coolbreezetft24 2y ago
  I think specifically the criticism was leveled at the F150, given the comparison to a significantly smaller less-impressive looking truck yet still had the same size truck-bed in it.
  - WillPostForFood 2y ago
    The bed in the F150 is shortened to make room for a second row of seats. It is just a tradeoff between carrying people and carrying stuff.
    - aydyn 2y ago
      That and the F150 isn't even a big truck, it's literally classified as "light duty". If you're trying to signal for _excess_, you aren't buying a F150.
      - 1659447091 2y ago
        Where I'm at, this is true. The F-350 is for signaling, F-150 is a decent utility vehicle (that allows for decent city driving). People actually use the all-in-one hauling, towing, and off-roading-in-comfort F-150 & Tundra here.
      - panopticon 2y ago
        Yeah, when I imagine excess I'm picturing a ridiculously lifted F-250 or 350 juxtaposed with low profile tires.
        osigurdson 2y ago
        Can you define "excess"?
pavel_lishin 2y ago
This seems to be more about how to spend less while shopping, rather than psychological tricks or generosity.
- jabbany 2y ago
  Not really, it skips over utility based shopping entirely. Everything in the article (after the bit about utility vs signalling) assumes the thing you're buying is primarily meant to increase social capital (as a gift or a display piece [which may still have utility]) and then explains how to get the most for your money in that case specifically.
  - moate 2y ago
    Idk the author’s cultural background (syntactical clues imply non-US), and I am also not rich, but this all seemed very foreign to me.
  - lcampbell 2y ago
    Less than skips over, utility based shopping is explicitly derided: > The narrative that you just told me [about utility shopping] is “I am a very analytical person who only has book smarts and no emotions”. And that narrative is boring!
    - throwaway173738 2y ago
      It’s a classic example of the either/or fallacy. You either buy for status or you’re an emotionless robot min/maxing through life. As if that’s a problem when you’re buying a tool like a light truck or minivan. The piece just reminds me of stuff I would have said as a teenager, before I had life experience and opinions about how I wanted to live.
  - lo_zamoyski 2y ago
    Consider clothing, which is a large class. The primary utility of clothing as such is known, but consider secondary utility. Some clothing improves safety (firefighter clothing). Some signals to others one's social role (police uniform). Some preserves cleanliness (a chef's uniform). A suit worn by a lawyer signals respect for the justice system and those participating in it, including oneself. All these have utility. Even signaling wealth is utility of some kind. Aesthetic considerations could be understood in a utilitarian way as well, as the utility is in the pleasure the beauty of a garment provides.
xg15 2y ago
> [1] The scarf/coat example is from this LessWrong article, based on the original paper Christopher K. Hsee, “Less Is Better: When Low-Value Options Are Valued More Highly than High-Value Options” Yep, somehow knew it had to be LessWrong the moment the post mentioned "social value". That scarf/coat experiment and really the entire concept sounds like exactly the things that some EA folks would get hyped up about.
- leetcrew 2y ago
  yeah, classic example of thinking so hard about something that you miss the obvious explanation. I already have a decent coat, so I'm not going to wear the shitty one you gave me. I already have a decent scarf too, but if you give me an especially nice one, it might become my new favorite. unless I'm planning to go straight to the store and return it, I don't really care which option cost more.
  - xg15 2y ago
    I think the psychological effect is probably real, but the framing is telling. The OP at least admints that it's sort of an asshole move to exploit this, while LessWrong straight up recommends people to do this - and in fact goes a step further and insists it's a virtuous thing to do if you value your friendships: > If you have a fixed amount of money to spend—and your goal is to display your friendship, rather than to actually help the recipient—you’ll be better off deliberately not shopping for value. Decide how much money you want to spend on impressing the recipient, then find the most worthless object which costs that amount. The cheaper the class of objects, the more expensive a particular object will appear, given that you spend a fixed amount. Which is more memorable, a $25 shirt or a $25 candle? [1] [1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/3T6p93Mut7G8qdkAs/evaluability-and-cheap-holiday-shopping https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/3T6p93Mut7G8qdkAs/evaluabili... (The rest of the article is actually still worth a read because it has a lot more explanation and nuance on the psychology behind it)
deadbabe 2y ago
A neat trick is to “pledge” to make some large donation then never really get around to it.
alistairSH 2y ago
I get more social value from the scarf by being seen as more generous, without actually spending more money, so I can pretending to be rich while being a cheap asshole! Um, not necessarily. This assumes the receiver has no concept of the giver’s budget, which is rarely true. And also assumes the receiver cares about the cash value of the gift receives, instead of either the motivation for giving or the utility of the item. This whole post stuck me as borderline disordered. Is this really the way rich people think? Sounds miserable to go through life being so calculating about everything. I’m “rich” by many measures (but nowhere near senior FAANG engineer rich) and I’d much rather just enjoy the life I’ve fallen into.
- schneems 2y ago
  A friend of mine was a rafting tour guide for a summer and one day Warren Buffet and family rode on his raft. Mr. Buffet did not leave a tip. I’m in a well off place, maybe similar to you, but I think that some ultra rich people fundamentally view money differently than us. It seems that saving money or making money is more of a game to them than the actual utility provided by the money. Somewhat like how even rich celebrities are caught shoplifting. I’m not sure if (lots of) money does that to people or people who have those impulses are more likely to have money due to being willing to use cut-throat tactics. Maybe if everyone here chips in a few hundred-thousand for a science (me) we can find out.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    I am unaware of tipping customs for a tour guide. I wouldn’t even have cash on me while rafting. I would have thought paying for the tour pays for the tour guide’s services.
    - schneems 2y ago
      The guides are pretty poorly paid. The companies are banking people who love the sport will do it for cheap, and they do. It’s similar to a ski instructor setup. Sometimes the position will come with room and board to help offset the meagre wages. When I was a broke college kid I tipped my tour guide $20 (in 2005 dollars). The guide will tell you on the trip to tip them. It would be hard not to know. Most places where tipping is greatly appreciated take into account things like “didn’t bring my wallet on the raft” and will do things like make sure to say goodbye to the group after the come out of a locker room at the end (for example). I’m pretty sure it wasn’t an accident. If you were in this situation there are plenty of ways to correct the course.
Havoc 2y ago
> Smart fridges, smart lightbulbs, and smart toothbrushes are also about precision: you gotta be a smart human to operate anything more complex than a can opener these days. As someone who tinkered unsuccessfully with zigbee stuff this weekend i feel attacked
credit_guy 2y ago
> A brand is totally dematerialized—Harvard is not the buildings and libraries—every school has those. Yeah, no. Harvard has a $50 billion endowment, other schools don’t.
jacknews 2y ago
The title seems misleading, it should just be 'better ways to buy things/spend your money' or similar. I do like the ethos that you should carefully consider/choose the things you own, and then look after them, repair them etc. They then carry the story of their ownership, and become much more valuable to you (witness the 'I repaired my broken mug' story on HN this last week). Our current semi-disposable fast-fashion money-go-round mode of consumption needs to stop.
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]

95 points by Kortaggio 2y ago

I am not “rich”, but a psychological trick I use when I’m out with one or two friends is that I always make sure I buy the first drink, or first entree etc. Basically I just make sure that I provide the first “gift”. The reason being that I know that I will most likely get back in return favours that far exceed what I initially fronted up with. The most recent example of me doing this was Friday night. I paid $6 for my friends drink, and then in return, he bought me dinner, and then also paid for me to go bowling. So in return for my $6 spent, I got about $50 of value in return. I been doing this since I was a kid. I grew up in poverty, and I think it’s like a behavioural adaptation I acquired because it was a way for me to get things I needed. I knew as a kid, that adults valued generosity. I didn’t have a lot to give because I was poor, so what I would do instead was craft handmade gifts, pick flowers for people, write nicely worded letters to people, or I would do chores for random people without being asked, and often I found people would return the favour by providing something in return. It wasn’t until I studied social psychology as an elective in my first degree that I realised I was using the rule of reciprocity to gain an advantage. Since realising the social convention behind it, I still do it to my advantage, but I would say now days, I do do it with more intention - therefore there are times where I do not exploit this human vulnerability because I know I am actually socially more advantaged than the other person. When I am in social situations where I know someone is far wealthier than I am, instead of offering them tangible gifts like buying a drink, I actually prefer to stroke their ego’s, and make them feel interesting and important, and I also am happy to allow them to feel socially superior to me. I don’t care if they view me as lower in the pecking order, because as long as they think that I admire them, they’re more likely to provide gifts, like buying me drinks etc… again, it’s an adaptation of the reciprocity thing, and something I learned to do as a kid.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mycologos 2y ago
Having this transactional a view of interactions doesn't sound fun. Is it something you're trying to change?
- etrautmann 2y ago
  I agree. I enjoy buying a friend a drink or a meal because giving something to someone is both nice and fun and makes you feel good as a result.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
jwilber 2y ago
This reads like some Patrick Bateman self-styled narrative. I suspect in reality this behavior is extremely obvious and off-putting. About as effective a psychological trick as the kid who just finished reading "How to Win Friends & Influence People" repeating your first name twenty times in a conversation. In other words, it just comes off weird and likely hurts more than it helps any meaningful relationships.
- russelldjimmy 2y ago
  “Your compliment was sufficient, Louis” ;)
- Johanx64 2y ago
  The behaviour is extremely obvious and off-putting if you're not good at it and you're forcing it. Or if you start doing it when you're halfway through life lived as a stingy bitter asshole (by no fault of your own necessarily, you just grew up in poverty with people made of same cloth), your attempts most likely will feel awkward and unnatural. Since the person has practiced these strategies since early childhood, he would do these things naturally and flawlessly. You wouldn't be able to tell if it's genuine or not, because he has ALWAYS done this, you wouldn't know a different version of this person, or catch them being anything but, because they always have bought the first drink, have always been nice and a good conversationalist (which 90% of the time means, shut up and attentively listen to other person and 10% of time asking questions to make the other person open up about their passions and interests), and would always remember everyone they meet by their first name regardless of their statute or position. The behavior becomes a genuine, well oiled habit, a natural. You can only catch a "fake" if it's situational and your behaviour completely changes depending on who you interact with or well... if you tell people on the internet about it. Social relations and human behavior is transactional regardless if you're aware of it or not. People really do like to bury their head in the sand and pretend that it isn't though and that there's some sort of special magical fairy dust going on in social relations.
  - seoulmetro 2y ago
    This is wrong. Manipulating friends with actual physical items never goes unnoticed as we attach those to our closest relations subconsciously. To think that someone can scam you without you knowing because they always scam you is hilarious when talking in the context of a close friend taking from you.
russelldjimmy 2y ago
It sounds like you have figured out a way to get what you want materially. It seems to be working well for you. However, like the other commenter pointed out, it does seem like a transactional way to view things. It sounds like such a view was very helpful to you in your childhood, which - as you mentioned - was in poverty, and I can imagine that this makes one focus their efforts and attention intensely on gaining material benefits. The question now is - is your life still demanding this narrow focus, or is it possible to relax this and start to enjoy the more intangible things in life? “If all one has is a hammer…” - you know how it goes :) Instead of seeing someone else’s generosity as a way to gain material benefit, can it be appreciated for just the generosity alone? Can the act of buying someone that “first gift” be enjoyed for the look of joy and surprise in their expression? It feels great to make someone’s day, and this is only possible when one’s attention is not focused on expecting something in return. A tangential thought: Sometimes people are not used to receiving gifts and they might be “overgenerous” in return because they got flustered at receiving a gift so suddenly. It’s not a positive feeling for them and the act can start to feel like “ransom” for them after some point. This is not your problem of course :) but one can become sensitive to such things only when one’s attention is not focused on “what will I get out of this transaction?”
- Quinzel 2y ago
  > sometimes people are not used to receiving gifts and they might be “overgenerous” in return because they got flustered…” This is something I had not considered to be honest, but is a great point and something I shall take on board.
  - Johanx64 2y ago
    I hated receiving gifs when I was broke/poor with passion. It basically works like this: 1. I receive a gift of 50$ usually spent very sub-optimally. 2. Now I have to spend ~50$ buying a gift in turn. The end result: someone buying me gift for 50$ is equivalent to forcing a bad 50$ purchase upon me OR forcing me to feel bad and potentially be perceived as ungrateful/unreciprocating.
    - deleted 2y ago
torginus 2y ago
I dunno why but for me, people don't seem to reciprocate anything nice I do for them (or buy for them). To be clear I don't expect the favors I do to be returned to me in a transactional manner, but I'd love to experience a random act of thoughtfulness out of the blue from the people I did nice things for.
- tsunamifury 2y ago
  Different circles act differently. In grad school every student was stringy and would take and never return. After I worked in tech everyone was quite generous.
  - torginus 2y ago
    Funnily enough, I don't think it's a money issue - I think that people have adopted such a consumerist, transactional mindset, that they can't distinguish the difference of services provided to them by the system at the swipe of their credit cards and the things other people put effort into (who are under absolutely no obligation to do so). It's the same transactional mindset view of 'what can you do for me' that's outlined in the top comment. Which is a foolish way to view the world imo, as friendships are much more difficult to acquire than money, but it is what it is.
    - tsunamifury 2y ago
      What’s funny is I was making the same point. I went to grad school with a lot of selfish asshole. But at work I had a pretty nice group of friends.
  - interludead 2y ago
    It's a life of a poor student
geysersam 2y ago
In my experience people do notice if they're spending more than their friends when buying beers and dinners and such. Your friends are probably not mentioning it because it's a bit awkward and they don't want to make you embarrassed, because they care about you.
whoknowsidont 2y ago
There is zero chance they don't realize what you're doing.
leetcrew 2y ago
I'm not sure this is as clever as you think. the other people in your stories almost certainly notice what you're doing. decent people tend to look for ways to help out their less fortunate companions. in this situation, it is totally normal (though not necessarily expected) for the recipient to offer something of token (ie, lesser) value in exchange. it helps everyone avoid overtly acknowledging the disparity in means. what they may not realize is that you are being intentionally manipulative. I'm sure they would be very disappointed to learn that you perceive this as winning some sort of game while they are being intentionally generous with you.
fragmede 2y ago
People aren't idiots and can do the math for themselves. They're not calling you out on it because you grew up poor and think you still are.
adolph 2y ago
> the rule of reciprocit You might be interested in Pre-suasion by Cialdini. Of special note is Cialdini’s ideas about ethical use of the techniques. https://www.amazon.com/Pre-Suasion-Revolutionary-Way-Influence-Persuade/dp/1501109804/ https://www.amazon.com/Pre-Suasion-Revolutionary-Way-Influen...
seoulmetro 2y ago
That's just tricking your friends and being a bad friend. Most normal friends swap the roles so that next time you buy the meal and they grab the drink. This sounds like a joke post based on how bad you are at human interaction but somehow studied psychology.

jc6 2y ago

This stuff their assistants do for them. To understand how they use signalling be aware of The Theory of the Leisure Class.

SnorkelTan 2y ago
Surprised a 3 letter username is still available on hn…
- azq 2y ago
  why? 36^3 = 46,656 and also no one cares as much as they do for .com etc.
readthenotes1 2y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_consumption https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_consumption I'm more devoted to conspicuous leisure, but waldt

osigurdson 2y ago

Author assumes the only reason people buy a truck is for "signalling".

coolbreezetft24 2y ago
I think specifically the criticism was leveled at the F150, given the comparison to a significantly smaller less-impressive looking truck yet still had the same size truck-bed in it.
- WillPostForFood 2y ago
  The bed in the F150 is shortened to make room for a second row of seats. It is just a tradeoff between carrying people and carrying stuff.
  - aydyn 2y ago
    That and the F150 isn't even a big truck, it's literally classified as "light duty". If you're trying to signal for _excess_, you aren't buying a F150.
    - 1659447091 2y ago
      Where I'm at, this is true. The F-350 is for signaling, F-150 is a decent utility vehicle (that allows for decent city driving). People actually use the all-in-one hauling, towing, and off-roading-in-comfort F-150 & Tundra here.
    - panopticon 2y ago
      Yeah, when I imagine excess I'm picturing a ridiculously lifted F-250 or 350 juxtaposed with low profile tires.
      - osigurdson 2y ago
        Can you define "excess"?

pavel_lishin 2y ago

This seems to be more about how to spend less while shopping, rather than psychological tricks or generosity.

jabbany 2y ago
Not really, it skips over utility based shopping entirely. Everything in the article (after the bit about utility vs signalling) assumes the thing you're buying is primarily meant to increase social capital (as a gift or a display piece [which may still have utility]) and then explains how to get the most for your money in that case specifically.
- moate 2y ago
  Idk the author’s cultural background (syntactical clues imply non-US), and I am also not rich, but this all seemed very foreign to me.
- lcampbell 2y ago
  Less than skips over, utility based shopping is explicitly derided: > The narrative that you just told me [about utility shopping] is “I am a very analytical person who only has book smarts and no emotions”. And that narrative is boring!
  - throwaway173738 2y ago
    It’s a classic example of the either/or fallacy. You either buy for status or you’re an emotionless robot min/maxing through life. As if that’s a problem when you’re buying a tool like a light truck or minivan. The piece just reminds me of stuff I would have said as a teenager, before I had life experience and opinions about how I wanted to live.
- lo_zamoyski 2y ago
  Consider clothing, which is a large class. The primary utility of clothing as such is known, but consider secondary utility. Some clothing improves safety (firefighter clothing). Some signals to others one's social role (police uniform). Some preserves cleanliness (a chef's uniform). A suit worn by a lawyer signals respect for the justice system and those participating in it, including oneself. All these have utility. Even signaling wealth is utility of some kind. Aesthetic considerations could be understood in a utilitarian way as well, as the utility is in the pleasure the beauty of a garment provides.

xg15 2y ago

> [1] The scarf/coat example is from this LessWrong article, based on the original paper Christopher K. Hsee, “Less Is Better: When Low-Value Options Are Valued More Highly than High-Value Options” Yep, somehow knew it had to be LessWrong the moment the post mentioned "social value". That scarf/coat experiment and really the entire concept sounds like exactly the things that some EA folks would get hyped up about.

leetcrew 2y ago
yeah, classic example of thinking so hard about something that you miss the obvious explanation. I already have a decent coat, so I'm not going to wear the shitty one you gave me. I already have a decent scarf too, but if you give me an especially nice one, it might become my new favorite. unless I'm planning to go straight to the store and return it, I don't really care which option cost more.
- xg15 2y ago
  I think the psychological effect is probably real, but the framing is telling. The OP at least admints that it's sort of an asshole move to exploit this, while LessWrong straight up recommends people to do this - and in fact goes a step further and insists it's a virtuous thing to do if you value your friendships: > If you have a fixed amount of money to spend—and your goal is to display your friendship, rather than to actually help the recipient—you’ll be better off deliberately not shopping for value. Decide how much money you want to spend on impressing the recipient, then find the most worthless object which costs that amount. The cheaper the class of objects, the more expensive a particular object will appear, given that you spend a fixed amount. Which is more memorable, a $25 shirt or a $25 candle? [1] [1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/3T6p93Mut7G8qdkAs/evaluability-and-cheap-holiday-shopping https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/3T6p93Mut7G8qdkAs/evaluabili... (The rest of the article is actually still worth a read because it has a lot more explanation and nuance on the psychology behind it)

deadbabe 2y ago

A neat trick is to “pledge” to make some large donation then never really get around to it.

alistairSH 2y ago

I get more social value from the scarf by being seen as more generous, without actually spending more money, so I can pretending to be rich while being a cheap asshole! Um, not necessarily. This assumes the receiver has no concept of the giver’s budget, which is rarely true. And also assumes the receiver cares about the cash value of the gift receives, instead of either the motivation for giving or the utility of the item. This whole post stuck me as borderline disordered. Is this really the way rich people think? Sounds miserable to go through life being so calculating about everything. I’m “rich” by many measures (but nowhere near senior FAANG engineer rich) and I’d much rather just enjoy the life I’ve fallen into.

schneems 2y ago
A friend of mine was a rafting tour guide for a summer and one day Warren Buffet and family rode on his raft. Mr. Buffet did not leave a tip. I’m in a well off place, maybe similar to you, but I think that some ultra rich people fundamentally view money differently than us. It seems that saving money or making money is more of a game to them than the actual utility provided by the money. Somewhat like how even rich celebrities are caught shoplifting. I’m not sure if (lots of) money does that to people or people who have those impulses are more likely to have money due to being willing to use cut-throat tactics. Maybe if everyone here chips in a few hundred-thousand for a science (me) we can find out.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  I am unaware of tipping customs for a tour guide. I wouldn’t even have cash on me while rafting. I would have thought paying for the tour pays for the tour guide’s services.
  - schneems 2y ago
    The guides are pretty poorly paid. The companies are banking people who love the sport will do it for cheap, and they do. It’s similar to a ski instructor setup. Sometimes the position will come with room and board to help offset the meagre wages. When I was a broke college kid I tipped my tour guide $20 (in 2005 dollars). The guide will tell you on the trip to tip them. It would be hard not to know. Most places where tipping is greatly appreciated take into account things like “didn’t bring my wallet on the raft” and will do things like make sure to say goodbye to the group after the come out of a locker room at the end (for example). I’m pretty sure it wasn’t an accident. If you were in this situation there are plenty of ways to correct the course.

Havoc 2y ago

> Smart fridges, smart lightbulbs, and smart toothbrushes are also about precision: you gotta be a smart human to operate anything more complex than a can opener these days. As someone who tinkered unsuccessfully with zigbee stuff this weekend i feel attacked

credit_guy 2y ago

> A brand is totally dematerialized—Harvard is not the buildings and libraries—every school has those. Yeah, no. Harvard has a $50 billion endowment, other schools don’t.

jacknews 2y ago

The title seems misleading, it should just be 'better ways to buy things/spend your money' or similar. I do like the ethos that you should carefully consider/choose the things you own, and then look after them, repair them etc. They then carry the story of their ownership, and become much more valuable to you (witness the 'I repaired my broken mug' story on HN this last week). Our current semi-disposable fast-fashion money-go-round mode of consumption needs to stop.

aaron695 2y ago

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