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I live in a country which has no local auto industry to protect and can import vehicles from nearly anywhere. I can confidently say that China has won. There’

I live in a country which has no local auto industry to protect and can import vehicles from nearly anywhere. I can confidently say that China has won. There’s just no comparison, and this isn’t just about prices. I’m not even talking about EVs (though this goes double for them.) Maybe they got to this point through government subsidies and are dumping, I don’t know enough to say. But they’re the best, and cheapest, cars by a long shot.

mprev 2y ago
In what way best?
nashashmi 2y ago
China is a great place to start your journey in e-car making. Less regulations. Cheap materials. More fun with inventions. Lots of trials. Lots of low cost errors. Also bad publicity for established companies.
- throwup238 2y ago
  And a huge domestic market to amortize their development costs across with a middle class that is still growing instead of shrinking.
  - throwawaymaths 2y ago
    > middle class that is still growing instead of shrinking. You should update your facts on that. Although accurate numbers are hard to come by a lot of analysts and indicators point to this starting to reverse as of this year.
beezlebroxxxxxx 2y ago
> the best, and cheapest, cars by a long shot NA hasn't produced the best or cheapest cars for decades at this point. Auto manufacturing has been an extension of geopolitics for decades --- most of the time the cars we can buy are the cars we can buy because the government and trading partners made it that way, rather than some actual survival of the fittest, battle royale, last man standing exercise.
golergka 2y ago
What's your experience with Chinese cars long term? I've heard that they look really shiny in the dealership but are a nightmare in the long run.
- tashoecraft 2y ago
  Even if that is the case today, how long will it stay like that, and how much will it increase the cost to get it too comparable quality? It's only going to get better, and likely it'll get better faster than other manufacturers can get their products cheaper to compete.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    Or it won’t get better because incentives are bad
  - golergka 2y ago
    Apple still designs better phones and laptops than any Chinese, Taiwanese or Korean company. Italy and France still make better clothes. Japan still makes better kitchen utensils, gaming consoles and games. I could go on. Of course, quality of Chinese goods increases over time, it's stupid to deny that. However, it appears that in many industries and product categories there's an upper limit that Chinese products just can't breach.
- throwawaymaths 2y ago
  Sometimes they look burnt to a crisp in the dealership. https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/byd-reportedly-sees-10th-showroom-fire-since-2021-as-another-store-burns-down-in-china/ https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/byd-reportedly-sees-10th-s...
danaris 2y ago
I guess my question (genuine question, I do not know much about this topic) is whether the safety features in Chinese cars are on par with those from American and Japanese car companies. Are they "better" only in ways that are immediately obvious, but "cheaper" because they cut corners on the stuff you don't notice until it's too late? Or are they genuinely doing a better job even comparing apples to apples with other cars?
- randerson 2y ago
  Given that the US allows the Cybertruck and certain pickups to be sold, with complete disregard for pedestrian safety, I'd rather question whether Chinese cars are up to European standards.
- kieranmaine 2y ago
  Take a look at the Euro NCAP safety ratings - https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-ratings/ https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-ra... For 2023 there are a number of Chinese models in the top 10.
  - danaris 2y ago
    Ah, thanks. That's helpful.
_yb2s 2y ago
In what way are they the best? Are you saying the engineering, quality, and workmanship is at or above even high end German cars?
- whatever1 2y ago
  Apart from the engines (specially high performance and the diesel ones - forgetting the emissions scandal), and brand German cars do not have any real competitive edge. If you are willing to pay the price tag you can find craftsmanship, driving dynamics, safety, reliability elsewhere. In an EV world where software and electronic quirks are the main demand drivers (ev power trains cannot offer differentiation), Chinese are very well positioned to take over the lead.
  - lucianbr 2y ago
    So what would I get from China instead of a BMW M4 or Audi S5? That would be on par for craftsmanship, dynamics, safety, reliability, price. I'm quite curious.
    - whatever1 2y ago
      For ICE? There is no Chinese competition, but Kia stinger and Lexus RC are direct competition. In an EV world even the Hyundai Ioniq 5 can smoke the M4 or the S5. Take it for a test drive you will be shocked. For Chinese both BYD and Xiaomi have offerings in the space. (Btw I own an RS5 and would never trade it for an soul-less ev, but there are very few of us who care)
    - Wheaties466 2y ago
      BYD Han EV, Zeekr 001, NIO ET7, XPeng P7, BYD Seal
      - servus45678981 2y ago
        Those byds are really bad, just like the Xiaomi ones. They are falling apart and disturbing the public safety; one of the panels almost hit a passenger
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
cjbgkagh 2y ago
I keep trying to tell people this, the quality coming out of China keeps getting better and this is generally how things go. Japan was cheap crap, then became quality. Korea as well. It's pretty standard practice and should have been expected. For my inputs the same goods at the same quality from China are less than half the price than from elsewhere. That is an absolutely huge difference - and those margins often makes the difference between a viable venture and an unviable venture. Now there is Temu, Alibaba, Bangood, Vevor, etc. There is a local hardware store that only sells one brand from China but that brand has everything, super cheap, and really decent quality. Western companies were making a lot of money selling us cheap Chinese goods at large markups but now those companies are able to sell to us directly and the consumers can keep that surplus. If everything ends up both made in China and sold by China with Chinese brands what role does that leave the rest of us. I used to argue that the west was good at quality control with reliable and fair laws but those are rapidly fading away. Without that we only have finalization and real estate left, and how do we keep that ponzi scheme going without something fundamental and concrete to base it on.
- throwawaymaths 2y ago
  Are we living in the same universe? Byd is the car company that has had 10 showrooms catch fire. Temu was caught selling children's jewelry with 10x the acceptable level of lead. Foreign manufacturers are laying off like crazy in China. Sure, Chinese quality may be getting better but it's a race. Will the quality improve before demographic collapse and over leveraging destroys the economy? And beyond that horizon, is recovery even possible given how much toxic material china dumps into it's own environment, impacting cancer and fertility rates?
  - cjbgkagh 2y ago
    "demographic collapse" ah a Peter Zeihan fan I see, well I guess that answers it, we do live in different universes. I don't disagree that China will on average become older but that's not as devastating to China as it would be in the west. The elderly Chinese will die much more cheaply than those in the west and there will still be plenty of Chinese remaining. "Byd is the car company that has had 10 showrooms catch fire. Temu was caught selling children's jewelry with 10x the acceptable level of lead." - sounds like they're moving fast and breaking things. I don't like what they're doing either but that doesn't mean they wont be successful at it. If I was running the world it would be a lot cleaner and more efficient but I don't get to make that choice. The real questions is, short of a war, can the west effectively punish China and since the continued economic wellbeing of our middle class requires access to cheap Chinese goods I think that answer is no. So while a fuss will be made people will continue to buy things from China. "how much toxic material china dumps into it's own environment" I don't like that either, but I think you're overestimating the cost of the deaths on the Chinese economy. I hate that toxic shit ends up in food that is not labeled as coming from China and that's a big part of why I go to great expense in buying food where I can be certain of the source. But I don't buy the assumption that the Chinese economy requires a middle class to be financially and physicality healthy to survive. I think the financial implosion to over leveraging economies will disproportionally affect the west more than it affects China since China still has a large and competitive manufacturing to fall back on. The west had fanciful notions of being able to sell all of China a toothbrush - I think that was Nixon? For a long time expansion into Asia was where corporations imagined their future growth to come from - now they can't compete there and are finding it increasingly difficult to compete on their home turf.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
Isn't that kind of like Belgium declaring the outcome of WWII? I suppose it mostly comes down to what you think winning mean and the long term outcome will be.
TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
Are aftermarket services (parts, service) available or are those throwaway cars? It might be looking good now, but in few years it could be a nightmare to keep the car running.

mprev 2y ago

In what way best?

nashashmi 2y ago

China is a great place to start your journey in e-car making. Less regulations. Cheap materials. More fun with inventions. Lots of trials. Lots of low cost errors. Also bad publicity for established companies.

throwup238 2y ago
And a huge domestic market to amortize their development costs across with a middle class that is still growing instead of shrinking.
- throwawaymaths 2y ago
  > middle class that is still growing instead of shrinking. You should update your facts on that. Although accurate numbers are hard to come by a lot of analysts and indicators point to this starting to reverse as of this year.

beezlebroxxxxxx 2y ago

> the best, and cheapest, cars by a long shot NA hasn't produced the best or cheapest cars for decades at this point. Auto manufacturing has been an extension of geopolitics for decades --- most of the time the cars we can buy are the cars we can buy because the government and trading partners made it that way, rather than some actual survival of the fittest, battle royale, last man standing exercise.

golergka 2y ago

What's your experience with Chinese cars long term? I've heard that they look really shiny in the dealership but are a nightmare in the long run.

tashoecraft 2y ago
Even if that is the case today, how long will it stay like that, and how much will it increase the cost to get it too comparable quality? It's only going to get better, and likely it'll get better faster than other manufacturers can get their products cheaper to compete.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  Or it won’t get better because incentives are bad
- golergka 2y ago
  Apple still designs better phones and laptops than any Chinese, Taiwanese or Korean company. Italy and France still make better clothes. Japan still makes better kitchen utensils, gaming consoles and games. I could go on. Of course, quality of Chinese goods increases over time, it's stupid to deny that. However, it appears that in many industries and product categories there's an upper limit that Chinese products just can't breach.
throwawaymaths 2y ago
Sometimes they look burnt to a crisp in the dealership. https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/byd-reportedly-sees-10th-showroom-fire-since-2021-as-another-store-burns-down-in-china/ https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/byd-reportedly-sees-10th-s...

danaris 2y ago

I guess my question (genuine question, I do not know much about this topic) is whether the safety features in Chinese cars are on par with those from American and Japanese car companies. Are they "better" only in ways that are immediately obvious, but "cheaper" because they cut corners on the stuff you don't notice until it's too late? Or are they genuinely doing a better job even comparing apples to apples with other cars?

randerson 2y ago
Given that the US allows the Cybertruck and certain pickups to be sold, with complete disregard for pedestrian safety, I'd rather question whether Chinese cars are up to European standards.
kieranmaine 2y ago
Take a look at the Euro NCAP safety ratings - https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-ratings/ https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-ra... For 2023 there are a number of Chinese models in the top 10.
- danaris 2y ago
  Ah, thanks. That's helpful.

_yb2s 2y ago

In what way are they the best? Are you saying the engineering, quality, and workmanship is at or above even high end German cars?

whatever1 2y ago
Apart from the engines (specially high performance and the diesel ones - forgetting the emissions scandal), and brand German cars do not have any real competitive edge. If you are willing to pay the price tag you can find craftsmanship, driving dynamics, safety, reliability elsewhere. In an EV world where software and electronic quirks are the main demand drivers (ev power trains cannot offer differentiation), Chinese are very well positioned to take over the lead.
- lucianbr 2y ago
  So what would I get from China instead of a BMW M4 or Audi S5? That would be on par for craftsmanship, dynamics, safety, reliability, price. I'm quite curious.
  - whatever1 2y ago
    For ICE? There is no Chinese competition, but Kia stinger and Lexus RC are direct competition. In an EV world even the Hyundai Ioniq 5 can smoke the M4 or the S5. Take it for a test drive you will be shocked. For Chinese both BYD and Xiaomi have offerings in the space. (Btw I own an RS5 and would never trade it for an soul-less ev, but there are very few of us who care)
  - Wheaties466 2y ago
    BYD Han EV, Zeekr 001, NIO ET7, XPeng P7, BYD Seal
    - servus45678981 2y ago
      Those byds are really bad, just like the Xiaomi ones. They are falling apart and disturbing the public safety; one of the panels almost hit a passenger

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

cjbgkagh 2y ago

I keep trying to tell people this, the quality coming out of China keeps getting better and this is generally how things go. Japan was cheap crap, then became quality. Korea as well. It's pretty standard practice and should have been expected. For my inputs the same goods at the same quality from China are less than half the price than from elsewhere. That is an absolutely huge difference - and those margins often makes the difference between a viable venture and an unviable venture. Now there is Temu, Alibaba, Bangood, Vevor, etc. There is a local hardware store that only sells one brand from China but that brand has everything, super cheap, and really decent quality. Western companies were making a lot of money selling us cheap Chinese goods at large markups but now those companies are able to sell to us directly and the consumers can keep that surplus. If everything ends up both made in China and sold by China with Chinese brands what role does that leave the rest of us. I used to argue that the west was good at quality control with reliable and fair laws but those are rapidly fading away. Without that we only have finalization and real estate left, and how do we keep that ponzi scheme going without something fundamental and concrete to base it on.

throwawaymaths 2y ago
Are we living in the same universe? Byd is the car company that has had 10 showrooms catch fire. Temu was caught selling children's jewelry with 10x the acceptable level of lead. Foreign manufacturers are laying off like crazy in China. Sure, Chinese quality may be getting better but it's a race. Will the quality improve before demographic collapse and over leveraging destroys the economy? And beyond that horizon, is recovery even possible given how much toxic material china dumps into it's own environment, impacting cancer and fertility rates?
- cjbgkagh 2y ago
  "demographic collapse" ah a Peter Zeihan fan I see, well I guess that answers it, we do live in different universes. I don't disagree that China will on average become older but that's not as devastating to China as it would be in the west. The elderly Chinese will die much more cheaply than those in the west and there will still be plenty of Chinese remaining. "Byd is the car company that has had 10 showrooms catch fire. Temu was caught selling children's jewelry with 10x the acceptable level of lead." - sounds like they're moving fast and breaking things. I don't like what they're doing either but that doesn't mean they wont be successful at it. If I was running the world it would be a lot cleaner and more efficient but I don't get to make that choice. The real questions is, short of a war, can the west effectively punish China and since the continued economic wellbeing of our middle class requires access to cheap Chinese goods I think that answer is no. So while a fuss will be made people will continue to buy things from China. "how much toxic material china dumps into it's own environment" I don't like that either, but I think you're overestimating the cost of the deaths on the Chinese economy. I hate that toxic shit ends up in food that is not labeled as coming from China and that's a big part of why I go to great expense in buying food where I can be certain of the source. But I don't buy the assumption that the Chinese economy requires a middle class to be financially and physicality healthy to survive. I think the financial implosion to over leveraging economies will disproportionally affect the west more than it affects China since China still has a large and competitive manufacturing to fall back on. The west had fanciful notions of being able to sell all of China a toothbrush - I think that was Nixon? For a long time expansion into Asia was where corporations imagined their future growth to come from - now they can't compete there and are finding it increasingly difficult to compete on their home turf.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

Isn't that kind of like Belgium declaring the outcome of WWII? I suppose it mostly comes down to what you think winning mean and the long term outcome will be.

TheLoafOfBread 2y ago

Are aftermarket services (parts, service) available or are those throwaway cars? It might be looking good now, but in few years it could be a nightmare to keep the car running.