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The US was historically built on the idea that free enterprise, for all its warts, is less bad than governments meddling in your life. Much of modern Europe is

The US was historically built on the idea that free enterprise, for all its warts, is less bad than governments meddling in your life. Much of modern Europe is built on the opposite idea: that governments know better and that private enterprise is inherently corrupt. I don't want to pick sides in that debate, but it amazes me how wonderfully ahistorical it is. The US doesn't have a history of oppressive governments; Europe, on the other hand... Anyway, the disconnect you allude to isn't a disconnect if you consider it from this angle. GDPR is meant to protect you from private businesses. Chat control is supposed to protect you (and the state) from online predators. It was at no point about protecting you from the government.

andrewxdiamond 2y ago
> US doesn't have a history of oppressive governments Yeah except the founding story of the country
- violet13 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - quartesixte 2y ago
    Yeah the Revolution gets hyped a lot but if you take a step back it was “anddd they taxed us too much time to take up arms.” Which to the colonies was tantamount to tyranny but the world hadn’t yet seen tyranny the way it would see it post Industrial Revolution.
- eesmith 2y ago
  And the California Genocide ... And the confiscation of indigenous land and forced expulsion of those people ... And state constitutions which prohibited Blacks from moving in ... Institutionalized Jim Crow-era race-based restrictions, including Sundown Towns and redlining... The forced expulsion of Chinese-Americans from Tacoma, by white supremacists including the mayor, judge and city councilors, which became the method used to further Chinese expulsion in the US West. Oh, and the Japanese detainment camps in WWII ... Nope, no history of oppressive governments in the US.
- snowpid 2y ago
  I found it mildly problematic that non American views about American history are flagged because they don't fit into the American world view.
  - krapp 2y ago
    Schools in some states aren't allowed to discuss any topic that creates "discomfort, guilt or anguish on the basis of political belief." Which means they can't teach about slavery or manifest destiny or any other aspect of American history for which an honest, critical look might make white people uncomfortable. Texas even wanted to mandate that 'slavery' be referred to as 'involuntary relocation' and slaves themselves as 'workers' in textbooks, and Texas teachers are forbidden by law from teaching that slavery was part of the founding of the US, they can only teach that it was a "deviation from American values." It's a bit more than mildly problematic.
fooker 2y ago
It’s not historical. You have inverted cause and effect. Europe has a history with authoritarian governments precisely because of this and the US has escaped this so far because of the culture of distrusting the government.
jodrellblank 2y ago
The US was historically built on the idea that slavery was fantastic. The colonists rebelled against the UK because the UK was freeing slaves. They fought the civil war over states rights - the rights to own slaves - and proceeded to have the largest prison population on the planet, for-profit prisons with forced manufacturing labour. Along with historic megaprojects like railways and dams which killed a lot of immigrant labourers. And poor employee protection, unions, minimum wages, social safety nets, social health care. And is currently forcing women back to being mothers by blocking alternatives, and lowering the ages children can be sent to work. The USA doesn't think free enterprise is great, it thinks 'free' enterprise is great for the elite. > "The US doesn't have a history of oppressive governments" Unless you're black. Or a woman. Or poor. Or Mexican. Or disabled. Or smoking the wrong plant. Or a criminal. Or prescribed opioids by a doctor bribed by the pharmaceutical reps and it went wrong for you.
- Amezarak 2y ago
  Much of this comment could sort of be true if you put a really heavy spin on cherry-picked facts and poured some salt on them, but there’s no way to substantiate the claim the US revolted because the UK was freeing slaves. For example, that’d be hard to square with Thomas Jefferson, in his capacity as governor of Virginia, banning the slave trade (not slavery) and freeing all slaves imported despite the ban two years after the Declaration of Independence- literally during the Revolutionary War. There was always an abolitionist streak in America, driven mostly by the same elements as on the UK and developing at the same time.
  - jodrellblank 2y ago
    > "there’s no way to substantiate the claim the US revolted because the UK was freeing slaves." Not the only reason, things rarely have a single reason; but there's more than nothing to it. Certainly the OP claiming the USA was built on the spirit of free enterprise when it looks more like it was built on the backs of slaves and downtrodden labourers isn't going to pass unremarked[1]; some quotes from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/37986/was-the-somerset-decision-in-1772-in-england-the-real-underlying-cause-of-the-am https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/37986/was-the-so... "He's not 100% wrong that the desire of slaveholders in the States to protect their "property" and the institution itself has been drastically underplayed by Americans in talking about their own history (and really, can you blame them?) For a good historical perspective on this, I highly recommend Slavery and the Founders, by Paul Finkelman." ---- "I think that there were probably a great many factors that led to the American Revolution. Concerns about the growing anti-slavery movement in the UK were undoubtedly among them. Although it is true that the case of Somerset v Stewart in 1772 was a landmark in the campaign against slavery, I suspect that an earlier case would probably have caused greater alarm to slave-owners in British colonies. In the case of Shanley v Harvey (1763), the Lord Chancellor, Lord Henley stated " ... as soon as a man sets foot on English ground he is free". He further observed that, in his learned opinion, a negro could take his master to court for cruel treatment. Now, these comments were only obiter dictum, and so not binding on subsequent courts, but they would have caused huge concern to slave owners anywhere in the world who considered themselves to be British subjects." ---- Then Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerset_v_Stewart#Influence_in_Great_Britain_and_colonies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerset_v_Stewart#Influence_i... "The Somerset case was reported in detail by the American colonial press.[citation needed] In Massachusetts, several slaves filed freedom suits in 1773–1774 based on Mansfield's ruling; these were supported by the colony's General Court (for freedom of the slaves), but vetoed by successive Royal governors. As a result,[citation needed] some individuals in pro-slavery and anti-slavery colonies, for opposite reasons, desired a distinct break from English law in order to achieve their goals with regard to slavery.[47]" [1] yes yes British Empire had slaves, genocides, cruelty, poverty, &c.
owisd 2y ago
> The US doesn't have a history of oppressive government largest prison population in the world, slavery, Manzanar, Jim Crow laws, McCarthyism, police brutality…
thefz 2y ago
> The US doesn't have a history of oppressive governments; Europe, on the other hand... The genocide that happened when the settlers, well, settled flew over your head? All the intelligence agencies' interference in other countries probably flew over as well.

andrewxdiamond 2y ago

> US doesn't have a history of oppressive governments Yeah except the founding story of the country

violet13 2y ago
[flagged]
- quartesixte 2y ago
  Yeah the Revolution gets hyped a lot but if you take a step back it was “anddd they taxed us too much time to take up arms.” Which to the colonies was tantamount to tyranny but the world hadn’t yet seen tyranny the way it would see it post Industrial Revolution.
eesmith 2y ago
And the California Genocide ... And the confiscation of indigenous land and forced expulsion of those people ... And state constitutions which prohibited Blacks from moving in ... Institutionalized Jim Crow-era race-based restrictions, including Sundown Towns and redlining... The forced expulsion of Chinese-Americans from Tacoma, by white supremacists including the mayor, judge and city councilors, which became the method used to further Chinese expulsion in the US West. Oh, and the Japanese detainment camps in WWII ... Nope, no history of oppressive governments in the US.
snowpid 2y ago
I found it mildly problematic that non American views about American history are flagged because they don't fit into the American world view.
- krapp 2y ago
  Schools in some states aren't allowed to discuss any topic that creates "discomfort, guilt or anguish on the basis of political belief." Which means they can't teach about slavery or manifest destiny or any other aspect of American history for which an honest, critical look might make white people uncomfortable. Texas even wanted to mandate that 'slavery' be referred to as 'involuntary relocation' and slaves themselves as 'workers' in textbooks, and Texas teachers are forbidden by law from teaching that slavery was part of the founding of the US, they can only teach that it was a "deviation from American values." It's a bit more than mildly problematic.

fooker 2y ago

It’s not historical. You have inverted cause and effect. Europe has a history with authoritarian governments precisely because of this and the US has escaped this so far because of the culture of distrusting the government.

jodrellblank 2y ago

The US was historically built on the idea that slavery was fantastic. The colonists rebelled against the UK because the UK was freeing slaves. They fought the civil war over states rights - the rights to own slaves - and proceeded to have the largest prison population on the planet, for-profit prisons with forced manufacturing labour. Along with historic megaprojects like railways and dams which killed a lot of immigrant labourers. And poor employee protection, unions, minimum wages, social safety nets, social health care. And is currently forcing women back to being mothers by blocking alternatives, and lowering the ages children can be sent to work. The USA doesn't think free enterprise is great, it thinks 'free' enterprise is great for the elite. > "The US doesn't have a history of oppressive governments" Unless you're black. Or a woman. Or poor. Or Mexican. Or disabled. Or smoking the wrong plant. Or a criminal. Or prescribed opioids by a doctor bribed by the pharmaceutical reps and it went wrong for you.

Amezarak 2y ago
Much of this comment could sort of be true if you put a really heavy spin on cherry-picked facts and poured some salt on them, but there’s no way to substantiate the claim the US revolted because the UK was freeing slaves. For example, that’d be hard to square with Thomas Jefferson, in his capacity as governor of Virginia, banning the slave trade (not slavery) and freeing all slaves imported despite the ban two years after the Declaration of Independence- literally during the Revolutionary War. There was always an abolitionist streak in America, driven mostly by the same elements as on the UK and developing at the same time.
- jodrellblank 2y ago
  > "there’s no way to substantiate the claim the US revolted because the UK was freeing slaves." Not the only reason, things rarely have a single reason; but there's more than nothing to it. Certainly the OP claiming the USA was built on the spirit of free enterprise when it looks more like it was built on the backs of slaves and downtrodden labourers isn't going to pass unremarked[1]; some quotes from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/37986/was-the-somerset-decision-in-1772-in-england-the-real-underlying-cause-of-the-am https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/37986/was-the-so... "He's not 100% wrong that the desire of slaveholders in the States to protect their "property" and the institution itself has been drastically underplayed by Americans in talking about their own history (and really, can you blame them?) For a good historical perspective on this, I highly recommend Slavery and the Founders, by Paul Finkelman." ---- "I think that there were probably a great many factors that led to the American Revolution. Concerns about the growing anti-slavery movement in the UK were undoubtedly among them. Although it is true that the case of Somerset v Stewart in 1772 was a landmark in the campaign against slavery, I suspect that an earlier case would probably have caused greater alarm to slave-owners in British colonies. In the case of Shanley v Harvey (1763), the Lord Chancellor, Lord Henley stated " ... as soon as a man sets foot on English ground he is free". He further observed that, in his learned opinion, a negro could take his master to court for cruel treatment. Now, these comments were only obiter dictum, and so not binding on subsequent courts, but they would have caused huge concern to slave owners anywhere in the world who considered themselves to be British subjects." ---- Then Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerset_v_Stewart#Influence_in_Great_Britain_and_colonies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerset_v_Stewart#Influence_i... "The Somerset case was reported in detail by the American colonial press.[citation needed] In Massachusetts, several slaves filed freedom suits in 1773–1774 based on Mansfield's ruling; these were supported by the colony's General Court (for freedom of the slaves), but vetoed by successive Royal governors. As a result,[citation needed] some individuals in pro-slavery and anti-slavery colonies, for opposite reasons, desired a distinct break from English law in order to achieve their goals with regard to slavery.[47]" [1] yes yes British Empire had slaves, genocides, cruelty, poverty, &c.

owisd 2y ago

> The US doesn't have a history of oppressive government largest prison population in the world, slavery, Manzanar, Jim Crow laws, McCarthyism, police brutality…

thefz 2y ago

> The US doesn't have a history of oppressive governments; Europe, on the other hand... The genocide that happened when the settlers, well, settled flew over your head? All the intelligence agencies' interference in other countries probably flew over as well.