14 ms·

$3B secret program undermining Biden's tech policy

22 points by Umofomia 2y ago

asnyder 2y ago
Really gross. Honestly, has America always been this corrupt or the last 20 years really hitting its stride? As if the DOD doesn't have enough funds, they have to pull new taxpayers funds for this clearly wasteful program. Some super secretive, non-collaborative, non-competitive, bureaucratic run foundry will surely be worse over the long run. Sounds like DoD wants their own foundry but won't even reach into their existing bloated budget to do it. Shameful. Would be a bad idea even if it was from their budget but less terrible than the current situation.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  How do you think Silicon Valley was originally funded in the 1950s?
alephnerd 2y ago
For reference, this is talking about Intel SGX (though they also funded AMD's SEV which is what Google uses internally) Unlike the negative spin put on this by Politico, it does have actual tangible usecases in encryption and locking down your attack surface from a process based attack standpoint, as well as minimizing side channel attacks. When you're dealing with nation state level espionage, it's a valid attack surface. This is also the underlying research that enabled the entire Confidental Computing segment (eg. Fortanix and Hashicorp Vault) Edit: What is confidential computing? Basically how to process data in use without knowing the underlying data itself. So, if I need to train a model on PII, I can encrypt that PII dataset yet still get an equally functional model. This means requiring trusted execution on R/W+ functions, ideally via some form of a trusted VM. Sort of like eBPF's VM but even more lower stack.
- bobbiechen 2y ago
  And presumably not just SGX, but also the funding goes to future development in confidential computing hardware platforms as well (Intel TDX, ARM Realms, NVIDIA Confidential Computing, etc.). As you mentioned in another comment, there are lots of flavors from different vendors. Intel SGX is notoriously difficult to implement, and the newer Confidential Computing architectures like AMD SEV-SNP make different trade-offs towards ease-of-use. Every modern smartphone user benefits from the mobile flavors of confidential computing today, protecting biometrics or mobile pay wallets with implementations like Apple's Secure Enclave or Samsung Knox (based on ARM TrustZone). It protects from real attacks seen in the wild. For example, Volt Typhoon (state-level actor) as reported by CISA https://www.cisa.gov/news-events/cybersecurity-advisories/aa24-038a https://www.cisa.gov/news-events/cybersecurity-advisories/aa... , or the attack against CircleCI in 2023 as I wrote in https://www.anjuna.io/blog/memory-dumping-attacks-are-not-just-a-theoretical-concern https://www.anjuna.io/blog/memory-dumping-attacks-are-not-ju... .
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > And presumably not just SGX, but also the funding goes to future development in confidential computing hardware platforms as well Exactly!
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- baybal2 2y ago
  [dead]
jauntywundrkind 2y ago
I'm part sympathetic (to a right wing slanted site's angst against how Biden's program is going), but also, those doesn't feel that out of line with the intent of the CHIPS act. It depends on what the expected outcome is, but figuring out how to rely on and have trust in the security of the chips we are making, making sure they don't have secret backdoors or hidden circuits, making sure the enclaves really are secure: that feels like it's definitely a key part of maintaining the US. That said, $3B is a ton of money for who knows exactly what. How will this effort help and who? Ideally this would fund good efforts that everyone could use to advance the general state of computing security. But in all probability, this will get buried away in DoD projects that don't help anyone. One shout out, while looking for more information on CHIPS, I ran across this wikipedia blurb, > And $1.5 billion funds the USA Telecommunications Act of 2020, which aims to enhance competitiveness of software and hardware supply chains of open RAN 5G networks That's cool! That's how we should be funding advancements! Facebook/Meta donated a huge amount of super awesome work on their 5g EvenStar platform to OpenCompute, which seems to have incredibly solid figures-of-merit, built with hyperscaler minded cut-throat cost-effectiveness. I'd love to see these kind of blistering cutting edge state of the art works get support help & advancement!
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > to a right wing slanted site's angst against how Biden's program is going Politico is NOT right wing. I used to be a staffer with the DNC and we'd prefer them over The Hill (the GOP version) though we both would talk with both. > for who knows exactly what Confidential Computing. Basically how to process data in use without knowing the underlying data itself. So, if I need to train a model on PII, I can encrypt that PII dataset yet still get an equally functional model. Furthermore, it's used to minimize hardware stack attacks after Supermicro (yes it did happen).
  - jauntywundrkind 2y ago
    Apologies on the Politico front. They indeed bear no resemblance to mainstream GOP stuff, have no patience for works like Don't Say Gay. I'm a little surprised to see how left accepted they are, according to https://www.allsides.com/news-source/politico-media-bias https://www.allsides.com/news-source/politico-media-bias but I seem to be in the wrong here. As for confidential computing & secure enclaves, yeah, I am somewhat aware of the field. My complaint is more that this money was stealth redirected, and it seems unlikely to me to help the broader industry. This feels like a bit of a slush fund for the area for Intel. Which like, back in ARPA days was a winning ticket: find alpha geeks, give them money, & let them cook. But those geeks were also sharing & collaborating & expanding the envelope for everyone, where-as here it feels like we're probably only helping Intel or whomever else on their own efforts.
hulitu 2y ago
> $3B secret program undermining Biden's tech policy Let me tell you a secret. /s

22 points by Umofomia 2y ago

Really gross. Honestly, has America always been this corrupt or the last 20 years really hitting its stride? As if the DOD doesn't have enough funds, they have to pull new taxpayers funds for this clearly wasteful program. Some super secretive, non-collaborative, non-competitive, bureaucratic run foundry will surely be worse over the long run. Sounds like DoD wants their own foundry but won't even reach into their existing bloated budget to do it. Shameful. Would be a bad idea even if it was from their budget but less terrible than the current situation.

ethbr1 2y ago
How do you think Silicon Valley was originally funded in the 1950s?

alephnerd 2y ago

For reference, this is talking about Intel SGX (though they also funded AMD's SEV which is what Google uses internally) Unlike the negative spin put on this by Politico, it does have actual tangible usecases in encryption and locking down your attack surface from a process based attack standpoint, as well as minimizing side channel attacks. When you're dealing with nation state level espionage, it's a valid attack surface. This is also the underlying research that enabled the entire Confidental Computing segment (eg. Fortanix and Hashicorp Vault) Edit: What is confidential computing? Basically how to process data in use without knowing the underlying data itself. So, if I need to train a model on PII, I can encrypt that PII dataset yet still get an equally functional model. This means requiring trusted execution on R/W+ functions, ideally via some form of a trusted VM. Sort of like eBPF's VM but even more lower stack.

bobbiechen 2y ago
And presumably not just SGX, but also the funding goes to future development in confidential computing hardware platforms as well (Intel TDX, ARM Realms, NVIDIA Confidential Computing, etc.). As you mentioned in another comment, there are lots of flavors from different vendors. Intel SGX is notoriously difficult to implement, and the newer Confidential Computing architectures like AMD SEV-SNP make different trade-offs towards ease-of-use. Every modern smartphone user benefits from the mobile flavors of confidential computing today, protecting biometrics or mobile pay wallets with implementations like Apple's Secure Enclave or Samsung Knox (based on ARM TrustZone). It protects from real attacks seen in the wild. For example, Volt Typhoon (state-level actor) as reported by CISA https://www.cisa.gov/news-events/cybersecurity-advisories/aa24-038a https://www.cisa.gov/news-events/cybersecurity-advisories/aa... , or the attack against CircleCI in 2023 as I wrote in https://www.anjuna.io/blog/memory-dumping-attacks-are-not-just-a-theoretical-concern https://www.anjuna.io/blog/memory-dumping-attacks-are-not-ju... .
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > And presumably not just SGX, but also the funding goes to future development in confidential computing hardware platforms as well Exactly!
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
baybal2 2y ago
[dead]

jauntywundrkind 2y ago

I'm part sympathetic (to a right wing slanted site's angst against how Biden's program is going), but also, those doesn't feel that out of line with the intent of the CHIPS act. It depends on what the expected outcome is, but figuring out how to rely on and have trust in the security of the chips we are making, making sure they don't have secret backdoors or hidden circuits, making sure the enclaves really are secure: that feels like it's definitely a key part of maintaining the US. That said, $3B is a ton of money for who knows exactly what. How will this effort help and who? Ideally this would fund good efforts that everyone could use to advance the general state of computing security. But in all probability, this will get buried away in DoD projects that don't help anyone. One shout out, while looking for more information on CHIPS, I ran across this wikipedia blurb, > And $1.5 billion funds the USA Telecommunications Act of 2020, which aims to enhance competitiveness of software and hardware supply chains of open RAN 5G networks That's cool! That's how we should be funding advancements! Facebook/Meta donated a huge amount of super awesome work on their 5g EvenStar platform to OpenCompute, which seems to have incredibly solid figures-of-merit, built with hyperscaler minded cut-throat cost-effectiveness. I'd love to see these kind of blistering cutting edge state of the art works get support help & advancement!

alephnerd 2y ago
> to a right wing slanted site's angst against how Biden's program is going Politico is NOT right wing. I used to be a staffer with the DNC and we'd prefer them over The Hill (the GOP version) though we both would talk with both. > for who knows exactly what Confidential Computing. Basically how to process data in use without knowing the underlying data itself. So, if I need to train a model on PII, I can encrypt that PII dataset yet still get an equally functional model. Furthermore, it's used to minimize hardware stack attacks after Supermicro (yes it did happen).
- jauntywundrkind 2y ago
  Apologies on the Politico front. They indeed bear no resemblance to mainstream GOP stuff, have no patience for works like Don't Say Gay. I'm a little surprised to see how left accepted they are, according to https://www.allsides.com/news-source/politico-media-bias https://www.allsides.com/news-source/politico-media-bias but I seem to be in the wrong here. As for confidential computing & secure enclaves, yeah, I am somewhat aware of the field. My complaint is more that this money was stealth redirected, and it seems unlikely to me to help the broader industry. This feels like a bit of a slush fund for the area for Intel. Which like, back in ARPA days was a winning ticket: find alpha geeks, give them money, & let them cook. But those geeks were also sharing & collaborating & expanding the envelope for everyone, where-as here it feels like we're probably only helping Intel or whomever else on their own efforts.

hulitu 2y ago

> $3B secret program undermining Biden's tech policy Let me tell you a secret. /s