5 ms·

That's a weak reason. Instead of being locked up with a bunch of classmates which you have no choice about you get to associate with people you choose.

gregjor 2y ago
Yes, exactly. And children should have opportunities to socialize with adults, in ways that aren't based on authority and following arbitrary rules. All of us who went to school know the feeling of disorientation when school ended and we had to face "the real world," which has very different rules and expectations than the school environment. Imagine raising children who didn't have to make that adjustment, because they only know "the real world."
- soco 2y ago
  Not kidding but my real world is based on authority and arbitrary rules - see laws, police, bosses, army, traffic...
ink_13 2y ago
> a bunch of classmates which you have no choice about you get to associate with This is actually extremely valuable as a life experience, and not gaining it as a child represents a major loss
- geomark 2y ago
  I hear that said but I completely disagree. Being surrounded by mostly game-addicted goal-less classmates is a drag on even a motivated high achiever. It was such a difference to have the flexibility of homeschooling and be able to get him in with some like-minded kids and watch him bloom (my anecdote, n=1).
  - sanderjd 2y ago
    Both experiences seem useful to me. The first is useful as a lesson that lots of people are like this (which is just true) and maybe it's not what you want for yourself, and the second is useful for the obvious reasons. Finding time to get both of those lessons is hard though, I get it.
- aleph_minus_one 2y ago
  > This is actually extremely valuable as a life experience, and not gaining it as a child represents a major loss Indeed: if you don't get this life experience, you don't learn to cultivate a fervent hate towards other humans. :-( Whether this is a desirable trait for you children to get is up to you to decide ...
  - sanderjd 2y ago
    The point is to figure out how to associate with arbitrary people without cultivating a "fervent hate" toward them. Everyone will have to participate in arbitrarily composed groups of people throughout life. Is it more or less likely for that experience to be one of hatred if exposed to it earlier or only later?
    - aleph_minus_one 2y ago
      > Is it more or less likely for that experience to be one of hatred if exposed to it earlier or only later? Rather: is it better if you are exposed to this in a jail-like situation or not? You can guess my answer.
      - sanderjd 2y ago
        School is significantly more like other totally normal settings where other people are present than it is like jail.
- gregjor 2y ago
  This happens with homeschooled kids too. My daughters didn't get to choose the other kids they took ice skating or salsa classes with. My son didn't get to pick the kids on his soccer team or Cub Scouts group. You're making a false dichotomy, as if homeschooled kids inhabit a parallel universe with no contact with kids who go to school. That just isn't the case.
sanderjd 2y ago
Yes, but there's a sampling bias. Most people (where I live) send their kids to school. So the "people you choose" to associate with during has to be drawn from a smaller population that has self-selected into that group for reasons I may or may not be aligned with.
- gregjor 2y ago
  There's no reason homeschooled kids can't make friends with kids who go to school. All of my kids did. Most of our neighbors went to school. Most of the kids they met at sports, music classes, ice skating, friends of friends went to regular school. There's no hard partition keeping homeschooled kids away from other kids. Too many people imagine homeschooling as "kids locked up at home," cut off from the rest of the world and other kids. Homeschoolers divide fairly neatly into families who keep their kids out of school for religious reasons, and families who choose to homeschool for other reasons, usually referred to as secular homeschoolers. Those groups can mix and do activities together, or they can stay partly or completely separate. I think that's what you allude to, but I'm not sure. We did not homeschool for religious reasons. Some of our friends did, and a larger number of homeschoolers we knew about chose not to associate with the secular families. But plenty of people homeschool for reasons other than religion or wanting to isolate their children from society, it's easy to find them.
  - sanderjd 2y ago
    For kids in school, all of those things are additive. They also do all those same kinds of activities in the hours between school and bedtime and on weekends and during the summer. For kids not in school, the options for social experiences during the school day are limited to the adult(s) with them, and other siblings or kids who are also not in school. During the school day, for most kids living in the US, that's a smaller pool of other kids to spend time with during the day. That's all I'm saying! Of course that doesn't mean they have no other ways to make friends! And I don't mean to imply it's a bad thing. "Having a larger pool of kids to see during school days" is certainly not the only metric worth optimizing for! But I think it just is true that, in most places in the US, kids who are in school spend more time with other kids than those who are not in school, just by dint of being in school being the default and more common thing.

gregjor 2y ago

Yes, exactly. And children should have opportunities to socialize with adults, in ways that aren't based on authority and following arbitrary rules. All of us who went to school know the feeling of disorientation when school ended and we had to face "the real world," which has very different rules and expectations than the school environment. Imagine raising children who didn't have to make that adjustment, because they only know "the real world."

soco 2y ago
Not kidding but my real world is based on authority and arbitrary rules - see laws, police, bosses, army, traffic...

ink_13 2y ago

> a bunch of classmates which you have no choice about you get to associate with This is actually extremely valuable as a life experience, and not gaining it as a child represents a major loss

geomark 2y ago
I hear that said but I completely disagree. Being surrounded by mostly game-addicted goal-less classmates is a drag on even a motivated high achiever. It was such a difference to have the flexibility of homeschooling and be able to get him in with some like-minded kids and watch him bloom (my anecdote, n=1).
- sanderjd 2y ago
  Both experiences seem useful to me. The first is useful as a lesson that lots of people are like this (which is just true) and maybe it's not what you want for yourself, and the second is useful for the obvious reasons. Finding time to get both of those lessons is hard though, I get it.
aleph_minus_one 2y ago
> This is actually extremely valuable as a life experience, and not gaining it as a child represents a major loss Indeed: if you don't get this life experience, you don't learn to cultivate a fervent hate towards other humans. :-( Whether this is a desirable trait for you children to get is up to you to decide ...
- sanderjd 2y ago
  The point is to figure out how to associate with arbitrary people without cultivating a "fervent hate" toward them. Everyone will have to participate in arbitrarily composed groups of people throughout life. Is it more or less likely for that experience to be one of hatred if exposed to it earlier or only later?
  - aleph_minus_one 2y ago
    > Is it more or less likely for that experience to be one of hatred if exposed to it earlier or only later? Rather: is it better if you are exposed to this in a jail-like situation or not? You can guess my answer.
    - sanderjd 2y ago
      School is significantly more like other totally normal settings where other people are present than it is like jail.
gregjor 2y ago
This happens with homeschooled kids too. My daughters didn't get to choose the other kids they took ice skating or salsa classes with. My son didn't get to pick the kids on his soccer team or Cub Scouts group. You're making a false dichotomy, as if homeschooled kids inhabit a parallel universe with no contact with kids who go to school. That just isn't the case.

sanderjd 2y ago

Yes, but there's a sampling bias. Most people (where I live) send their kids to school. So the "people you choose" to associate with during has to be drawn from a smaller population that has self-selected into that group for reasons I may or may not be aligned with.

gregjor 2y ago
There's no reason homeschooled kids can't make friends with kids who go to school. All of my kids did. Most of our neighbors went to school. Most of the kids they met at sports, music classes, ice skating, friends of friends went to regular school. There's no hard partition keeping homeschooled kids away from other kids. Too many people imagine homeschooling as "kids locked up at home," cut off from the rest of the world and other kids. Homeschoolers divide fairly neatly into families who keep their kids out of school for religious reasons, and families who choose to homeschool for other reasons, usually referred to as secular homeschoolers. Those groups can mix and do activities together, or they can stay partly or completely separate. I think that's what you allude to, but I'm not sure. We did not homeschool for religious reasons. Some of our friends did, and a larger number of homeschoolers we knew about chose not to associate with the secular families. But plenty of people homeschool for reasons other than religion or wanting to isolate their children from society, it's easy to find them.
- sanderjd 2y ago
  For kids in school, all of those things are additive. They also do all those same kinds of activities in the hours between school and bedtime and on weekends and during the summer. For kids not in school, the options for social experiences during the school day are limited to the adult(s) with them, and other siblings or kids who are also not in school. During the school day, for most kids living in the US, that's a smaller pool of other kids to spend time with during the day. That's all I'm saying! Of course that doesn't mean they have no other ways to make friends! And I don't mean to imply it's a bad thing. "Having a larger pool of kids to see during school days" is certainly not the only metric worth optimizing for! But I think it just is true that, in most places in the US, kids who are in school spend more time with other kids than those who are not in school, just by dint of being in school being the default and more common thing.