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As I said there are zero journalists in Gaza. This presumes independent reporting and Hamas does not allow it. Any journalist that reports something they don't

As I said there are zero journalists in Gaza. This presumes independent reporting and Hamas does not allow it. Any journalist that reports something they don't like gets a beating, and if they persist, they're killed. There are only propagandists with a "press" jacket. And since there's nothing better, places like BBC and CNN take what they can get.

runarberg 2y ago
First of all, this narrative simply isn’t true. We have plenty of images and footage from international journalists working freely in Gaza (except when the Israeli military shoots them). Second, I hope you are aware of the genocidal nature of your speech. I’m sure you don’t mean it this way, but this kind of speech can be taken to mean every Palestinian journalist in Gaza is a legitimate target. This kind of speech is used during genocides to justify atrocities.
- candiodari 2y ago
  Why don't we let the -hopefully mostly sane- people on this forum judge your comment by it's own merits. Obviously you can buy pictures from propagandists. The tough part really is NOT getting pictures from them when you're NOT paying for them.
  - runarberg 2y ago
    You are the one accusing Hamas of suppressing press freedom in Gaza. Show me the evidence you have for this accusation. Or, better yet, show me a third party report from a secondary source which summarizes this evidence. Your parent gave you a third party report of Israeli suppression of the press in Gaza (albeit from a primary source). Finally, you now double down on your rhetoric after I explicitly gave you the benefit of the doubt that you don’t actually mean it that way. Just to make this clear, you are stating that there are no innocent Palestinian journalists in Gaza. I hope realize how problematic this belief is. Even if you had evidence that some journalists were operatives or propagandist, these kinds of generalizing statements are very, very problematic.
    - candiodari 2y ago
      > You are the one accusing Hamas of suppressing press freedom in Gaza ... Yes I am. Google it for 5 seconds and ... https://rsf.org/en/country/palestine https://rsf.org/en/country/palestine
      - runarberg 2y ago
        From your own source: > and the journalists who had resisted pressure from Hamas in Gaza were then confronted with Israeli propaganda accusing them of working for Hamas. Journalists are often the target of smear campaigns and threats, and several Israeli politicians have called for Gaza’s journalists to be punished. EDIT: I’ll do your job for you. Here is an actual secondary source reporting on the press freedom inside Gaza back in 2015 https://theconversation.com/why-hamas-still-relies-on-violent-repression-to-control-gaza-42461 https://theconversation.com/why-hamas-still-relies-on-violen... The evidence they have (your RSF source does not cite any evidence): > In a June 2014 poll by the Palestinian Centre for Policy and Survey Research (PSR), 67.9% of Gazans (sic) said they could not criticise the Hamas authorities without fear. Perhaps it is right that there is lacking press freedom in Gaza, and that Hamas is at some fault for that. But since Oct. 7 this is all irrelevant because (as your own source states) Israeli suppression of news from Gaza is overwhelming.
        candiodari 2y ago
        First, I just did what you asked for. You said I needed to prove Hamas does not allow freedom of the press. Well, proven, you even bloody agree. Now, of course, you change subject, and blame Israel for supposedly lacking press freedom. Which is not what you were arguing about. You were arguing Hamas allows press freedom. You do this after pointing out that if one country lacks press freedom, that doesn't make it OK for another to lack it too. Great. You are not fairly discussing this issue. Not that that wasn't already clear. Everybody knows what hamas is and what they do. NOTHING excuses their behavior, and it is not comparable to what Israel does by any moral measure. Not in press freedom. Not in anything. Second, this is false moral equivalence. Hamas beats up and even kills journalists to get them under control. Israel "pressures". Some Israeli (NOT the Israeli state) have "smear campaigns" (ie. a few posts on twitter) about those journalists. Some Isreali politicians call for the justice system to go after those journalists, but the justice system doesn't actually do that. And even if it did, it STILL would be VERY far from what Hamas does. There is no moral comparison possible. Hamas suppress the press "problem" by what any honest human being calls "murder". Just like they solve any other problem. What Hamas does, obviously IS INFINITELY WORSE than what Israel does, to the point that comparisons are absurd. This is equating what the Taliban does to girls' education (ie. bomb school, poison students, massacre their own people, send in the police to beat students) with the denial of the "right" for teachers to wear headscarves. Whatever your opinion about both issues, they are totally incomparable.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
Pfhortune 2y ago
> As I said there are zero journalists in Gaza. This presumes independent reporting and Hamas does not allow it. Any journalist that reports something they don't like gets a beating, and if they persist, they're killed. Would like to learn more about this. Are there reports of this? Has Hamas issued a statement? Completely clamping down on independent photo/videography is very difficult, even in a place like Gaza.
- candiodari 2y ago
  > Completely clamping down on independent photo/videography is very difficult, even in a place like Gaza. Only if you follow western sensibilities. If you have gunmen roaming the streets with machine guns, allowed to shoot anyone of the "normal" people, and they constantly ask for inspecting people's phones ... then it's not very difficult. They regularly fire into crowds, for all sorts of reasons. Especially if about 20% of the population is part of that force roaming the streets with machine guns. There's 3 possible jobs you can have in Gaza: construction worker in Israel, Hamas or independent (baker, plumber, ...) Hamas keeps far tighter control of their population than the USSR ever did.
  - Pfhortune 2y ago
    These are significant allegations, but without any documentation of them I have a hard time believing they can be true. Firing weapons into crowds of people is a messy prospect that would attract significant attention no matter the perpetrator.

runarberg 2y ago

First of all, this narrative simply isn’t true. We have plenty of images and footage from international journalists working freely in Gaza (except when the Israeli military shoots them). Second, I hope you are aware of the genocidal nature of your speech. I’m sure you don’t mean it this way, but this kind of speech can be taken to mean every Palestinian journalist in Gaza is a legitimate target. This kind of speech is used during genocides to justify atrocities.

candiodari 2y ago
Why don't we let the -hopefully mostly sane- people on this forum judge your comment by it's own merits. Obviously you can buy pictures from propagandists. The tough part really is NOT getting pictures from them when you're NOT paying for them.
- runarberg 2y ago
  You are the one accusing Hamas of suppressing press freedom in Gaza. Show me the evidence you have for this accusation. Or, better yet, show me a third party report from a secondary source which summarizes this evidence. Your parent gave you a third party report of Israeli suppression of the press in Gaza (albeit from a primary source). Finally, you now double down on your rhetoric after I explicitly gave you the benefit of the doubt that you don’t actually mean it that way. Just to make this clear, you are stating that there are no innocent Palestinian journalists in Gaza. I hope realize how problematic this belief is. Even if you had evidence that some journalists were operatives or propagandist, these kinds of generalizing statements are very, very problematic.
  - candiodari 2y ago
    > You are the one accusing Hamas of suppressing press freedom in Gaza ... Yes I am. Google it for 5 seconds and ... https://rsf.org/en/country/palestine https://rsf.org/en/country/palestine
    - runarberg 2y ago
      From your own source: > and the journalists who had resisted pressure from Hamas in Gaza were then confronted with Israeli propaganda accusing them of working for Hamas. Journalists are often the target of smear campaigns and threats, and several Israeli politicians have called for Gaza’s journalists to be punished. EDIT: I’ll do your job for you. Here is an actual secondary source reporting on the press freedom inside Gaza back in 2015 https://theconversation.com/why-hamas-still-relies-on-violent-repression-to-control-gaza-42461 https://theconversation.com/why-hamas-still-relies-on-violen... The evidence they have (your RSF source does not cite any evidence): > In a June 2014 poll by the Palestinian Centre for Policy and Survey Research (PSR), 67.9% of Gazans (sic) said they could not criticise the Hamas authorities without fear. Perhaps it is right that there is lacking press freedom in Gaza, and that Hamas is at some fault for that. But since Oct. 7 this is all irrelevant because (as your own source states) Israeli suppression of news from Gaza is overwhelming.
      - candiodari 2y ago
        First, I just did what you asked for. You said I needed to prove Hamas does not allow freedom of the press. Well, proven, you even bloody agree. Now, of course, you change subject, and blame Israel for supposedly lacking press freedom. Which is not what you were arguing about. You were arguing Hamas allows press freedom. You do this after pointing out that if one country lacks press freedom, that doesn't make it OK for another to lack it too. Great. You are not fairly discussing this issue. Not that that wasn't already clear. Everybody knows what hamas is and what they do. NOTHING excuses their behavior, and it is not comparable to what Israel does by any moral measure. Not in press freedom. Not in anything. Second, this is false moral equivalence. Hamas beats up and even kills journalists to get them under control. Israel "pressures". Some Israeli (NOT the Israeli state) have "smear campaigns" (ie. a few posts on twitter) about those journalists. Some Isreali politicians call for the justice system to go after those journalists, but the justice system doesn't actually do that. And even if it did, it STILL would be VERY far from what Hamas does. There is no moral comparison possible. Hamas suppress the press "problem" by what any honest human being calls "murder". Just like they solve any other problem. What Hamas does, obviously IS INFINITELY WORSE than what Israel does, to the point that comparisons are absurd. This is equating what the Taliban does to girls' education (ie. bomb school, poison students, massacre their own people, send in the police to beat students) with the denial of the "right" for teachers to wear headscarves. Whatever your opinion about both issues, they are totally incomparable.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

Pfhortune 2y ago

> As I said there are zero journalists in Gaza. This presumes independent reporting and Hamas does not allow it. Any journalist that reports something they don't like gets a beating, and if they persist, they're killed. Would like to learn more about this. Are there reports of this? Has Hamas issued a statement? Completely clamping down on independent photo/videography is very difficult, even in a place like Gaza.

candiodari 2y ago
> Completely clamping down on independent photo/videography is very difficult, even in a place like Gaza. Only if you follow western sensibilities. If you have gunmen roaming the streets with machine guns, allowed to shoot anyone of the "normal" people, and they constantly ask for inspecting people's phones ... then it's not very difficult. They regularly fire into crowds, for all sorts of reasons. Especially if about 20% of the population is part of that force roaming the streets with machine guns. There's 3 possible jobs you can have in Gaza: construction worker in Israel, Hamas or independent (baker, plumber, ...) Hamas keeps far tighter control of their population than the USSR ever did.
- Pfhortune 2y ago
  These are significant allegations, but without any documentation of them I have a hard time believing they can be true. Firing weapons into crowds of people is a messy prospect that would attract significant attention no matter the perpetrator.