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Commuter train window cleaning conundrum in NJ

44 points by savrajsingh 2y ago

thinkingemote 2y ago
They chose polycarbonate plastic over glass but it suffers from the elements more than glass.
- userbinator 2y ago
  On the other hand, it's far harder to break than glass, which is important for equipment that will be subjected to vandals.
  - adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
    why would vandalism be more of an issue for trains than cars?
    - smelendez 2y ago
      Because more people will see them and they’re kind of iconic, so they’re a fun target for graffiti. People don’t really vandalize other people’s personal cars unless they have a grudge or they’re trying to break in to steal something. It’s kind of a jerk move. They’re also parked overnight in more remote areas than most cars. In fairness if you parked your car in an industrial area near a train yard overnight it’s probably more likely to get broken into than on a residential street.
    - noahtallen 2y ago
      It doesn’t matter which is a bigger target, it’s whether trains are a target at all. Vandalism definitely impacts cars; there are lots of issues with broken glass in cities around the world. Sometimes from a random person just smashing every car on the block, or for theft. But trains are definitely a big target, given you’ll find them all sitting outside overnight in a remote lot which might not be protected very well.
  - rangestransform 2y ago
    Vandalism is only an issue at all because the US is allergic to enforcing “broken windows” laws
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
relyks 2y ago
As a frequent user of the trains from NJ transit, I can attest to the fact that you can literally not see out of most of the windows
kylehotchkiss 2y ago
What about polycarbonate fronted by a thin sheet of glass with some sort of UV blocking? Or are these windows actually getting hit with stuff so often that wouldn’t be viable?
danielfoster 2y ago
It’s crazy that one of the largest commuter rail systems in a state with some of the highest taxes cannot just spend $8 million to replace the windows. I’m sure an audit of contracts or overtime payments could quickly find some extra money.
- ahi 2y ago
  At less than $20k per car, that doesn't even seem particularly expensive. This is a fairly basic maintenance item.
- Reason077 2y ago
  > ”crazy that one of the largest commuter rail systems in a state with some of the highest taxes cannot just spend $8 million to replace the windows.” Presumably they don’t want to replace faulty windows with more faulty windows that will just develop the same issue again over time. And it won’t be just be a case of going out and ordering different windows: train parts have to be carefully tested, certified etc to meet safety regulations.
- evanelias 2y ago
  In terms of the state subsidy, NJ Transit doesn't have a permanent dedicated source of funding in the state budget. It's a really messed-up situation. The governor prefers to waste billions of dollars on an unnecessary turnpike extension widening project, instead of funding public transit.
gravescale 2y ago
Would buffing with a fine polishing compound be unacceptable in terms of strength? Presumably this is a surface effect?
imglorp 2y ago
> not being able to see which station the train is at, especially if no announcement is made Wait, they're admitting they know this is a problem? It's such a pain having inaudible announcements or none at all. Is it really so hard to get on the PA for each stop? Then why not have it automated? Or an overhead sign in the car showing eta and name of next station? Ideally both.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
  I hate PA systems, especially if they are not automated and some poor drone mumbles the announcement 500 times per day. Give me digital signage every time.
- GenerWork 2y ago
  >Or an overhead sign in the car showing eta and name of next station? I believe the cars (definitely the newer ones) have exactly that. It seems like an odd complaint to me, but it's totally possible NJ Transit moved older cars that don't have this feature from more heavily trafficked lines to lines that don't have as much traffic.
  - pavel_lishin 2y ago
    Every car I've been on has about a dozen characters' worth of space. It's very easy to miss a visual announcement on those - I've missed my stop a few times, though I freely acknowledge that it's due to me not paying attention.
anarchogeek 2y ago
I took a commuter train in NJ earlier this year and i was shocked at the windows. Seriously, every other train system in the world can pull off clean windows but not New Jersey? India? Clean windows. China? Clean windows... You can't blame pollution... you can't blame regulation because they've got tons of that in Norway and Japan and they're able to keep their windows clean.
- imajoredinecon 2y ago
  If only “every other” were true. LIRR, NYC: same problem. Metra, Chicago: same problem.
  - presentation 2y ago
    So basically, the United States is incompetent and every other country in the world isn’t. Got it.
    - DiggyJohnson 2y ago
      That’s a ridiculous takeaway. It seems like you’re looking for hyperbole or otherwise have a bone to pick.
      - presentation 2y ago
        I mean literally the commenter listed out places all over the world with a tiny fraction of the resources that don’t have these types of problems and the counter examples are all American cities, it is no secret that US public transit is consistently worse than those practically anywhere else regardless of how proud those people may be.
        jccalhoun 2y ago
        The windows have to comply with the safety standards. Do countries like Indian and China have the same safety standards?
Animats 2y ago
> Metro-North Railroad and NJ Transit use a single pane of polycarbonate glazing almost a half inch thick. That's exactly what you'd expect from half an inch of uncoated polycarbonate. Resists rocks and small arms fire, can be pressure washed to remove graffiti, but will scuff. There are a few ways around that, but they all add cost.
twic 2y ago
So what is this proposed Rutgers solution? That seems like the key point of HN interest!
hedora 2y ago
https://archive.ph/kzrqa https://archive.ph/kzrqa
chiph 2y ago
UV exposure can certainly cause this, but what about their train washing systems? They commonly have large rotating plastic brushes and if grit gets caught up in the brush it's going to sand anything with a lower Mohs hardness. Los Angeles Metro wash system - note that they use glass and don't have this problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1JxVOzAz6E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1JxVOzAz6E
yumraj 2y ago
Since this is polycarbonate can’t it be just buffed, like the car headlight cleaning products do, using a very fine sandpaper? It’ll just take a thin layer off and can then be polished. It should cost less than replacing, I think..
- jandrese 2y ago
  Reading the article it sounded like this was a job for those ceramic coatings they sell to fix this same problem on car headlights. It will be a lot of hours of buffing and applying coats of sealant to fix this, but compared to the cost of replacing the windows it seems like a bargain.
AlgoRitmo 2y ago
We are all looking at our phones anyway
theoldlove 2y ago
You can see just fine out of Metro North windows, which are apparently the same half-inch of polycarbonate glazing. So what’s the difference? Does Metro North replace the windows more frequently?
- evanelias 2y ago
  Likely due to less sun exposure -- either at their train yards, or the orientation of their lines being more north/south than east/west. Also, Metro-North's two west-of-Hudson lines (which are co-branded/shared with NJ Transit, in terms of tracks and rolling stock) do have this same problem.
Kon-Peki 2y ago
I found an article that quoted people at the Chicago commuter rail system (Metra) saying that their rail cars should get a major rehab (which includes new windows) every 14 years. Looking at Wikipedia, the NJ Transit rail cars with the affected windows would have started hitting 14 years old (they were getting 10 delivered per month for a few years) right as the Covid-19 pandemic started shutting everything down. This is most likely just bad timing, and because of budget issues, supply chain problems, lack of maintenance capacity, etc. - something that they haven’t fully recovered from. (Just a guess)

44 points by savrajsingh 2y ago

thinkingemote 2y ago

They chose polycarbonate plastic over glass but it suffers from the elements more than glass.

userbinator 2y ago
On the other hand, it's far harder to break than glass, which is important for equipment that will be subjected to vandals.
- adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
  why would vandalism be more of an issue for trains than cars?
  - smelendez 2y ago
    Because more people will see them and they’re kind of iconic, so they’re a fun target for graffiti. People don’t really vandalize other people’s personal cars unless they have a grudge or they’re trying to break in to steal something. It’s kind of a jerk move. They’re also parked overnight in more remote areas than most cars. In fairness if you parked your car in an industrial area near a train yard overnight it’s probably more likely to get broken into than on a residential street.
  - noahtallen 2y ago
    It doesn’t matter which is a bigger target, it’s whether trains are a target at all. Vandalism definitely impacts cars; there are lots of issues with broken glass in cities around the world. Sometimes from a random person just smashing every car on the block, or for theft. But trains are definitely a big target, given you’ll find them all sitting outside overnight in a remote lot which might not be protected very well.
- rangestransform 2y ago
  Vandalism is only an issue at all because the US is allergic to enforcing “broken windows” laws

aaron695 2y ago

[dead]

relyks 2y ago

As a frequent user of the trains from NJ transit, I can attest to the fact that you can literally not see out of most of the windows

kylehotchkiss 2y ago

What about polycarbonate fronted by a thin sheet of glass with some sort of UV blocking? Or are these windows actually getting hit with stuff so often that wouldn’t be viable?

danielfoster 2y ago

It’s crazy that one of the largest commuter rail systems in a state with some of the highest taxes cannot just spend $8 million to replace the windows. I’m sure an audit of contracts or overtime payments could quickly find some extra money.

ahi 2y ago
At less than $20k per car, that doesn't even seem particularly expensive. This is a fairly basic maintenance item.
Reason077 2y ago
> ”crazy that one of the largest commuter rail systems in a state with some of the highest taxes cannot just spend $8 million to replace the windows.” Presumably they don’t want to replace faulty windows with more faulty windows that will just develop the same issue again over time. And it won’t be just be a case of going out and ordering different windows: train parts have to be carefully tested, certified etc to meet safety regulations.
evanelias 2y ago
In terms of the state subsidy, NJ Transit doesn't have a permanent dedicated source of funding in the state budget. It's a really messed-up situation. The governor prefers to waste billions of dollars on an unnecessary turnpike extension widening project, instead of funding public transit.

gravescale 2y ago

Would buffing with a fine polishing compound be unacceptable in terms of strength? Presumably this is a surface effect?

imglorp 2y ago

> not being able to see which station the train is at, especially if no announcement is made Wait, they're admitting they know this is a problem? It's such a pain having inaudible announcements or none at all. Is it really so hard to get on the PA for each stop? Then why not have it automated? Or an overhead sign in the car showing eta and name of next station? Ideally both.

0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
I hate PA systems, especially if they are not automated and some poor drone mumbles the announcement 500 times per day. Give me digital signage every time.
GenerWork 2y ago
>Or an overhead sign in the car showing eta and name of next station? I believe the cars (definitely the newer ones) have exactly that. It seems like an odd complaint to me, but it's totally possible NJ Transit moved older cars that don't have this feature from more heavily trafficked lines to lines that don't have as much traffic.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  Every car I've been on has about a dozen characters' worth of space. It's very easy to miss a visual announcement on those - I've missed my stop a few times, though I freely acknowledge that it's due to me not paying attention.

anarchogeek 2y ago

I took a commuter train in NJ earlier this year and i was shocked at the windows. Seriously, every other train system in the world can pull off clean windows but not New Jersey? India? Clean windows. China? Clean windows... You can't blame pollution... you can't blame regulation because they've got tons of that in Norway and Japan and they're able to keep their windows clean.

imajoredinecon 2y ago
If only “every other” were true. LIRR, NYC: same problem. Metra, Chicago: same problem.
- presentation 2y ago
  So basically, the United States is incompetent and every other country in the world isn’t. Got it.
  - DiggyJohnson 2y ago
    That’s a ridiculous takeaway. It seems like you’re looking for hyperbole or otherwise have a bone to pick.
    - presentation 2y ago
      I mean literally the commenter listed out places all over the world with a tiny fraction of the resources that don’t have these types of problems and the counter examples are all American cities, it is no secret that US public transit is consistently worse than those practically anywhere else regardless of how proud those people may be.
      - jccalhoun 2y ago
        The windows have to comply with the safety standards. Do countries like Indian and China have the same safety standards?

Animats 2y ago

> Metro-North Railroad and NJ Transit use a single pane of polycarbonate glazing almost a half inch thick. That's exactly what you'd expect from half an inch of uncoated polycarbonate. Resists rocks and small arms fire, can be pressure washed to remove graffiti, but will scuff. There are a few ways around that, but they all add cost.

twic 2y ago

So what is this proposed Rutgers solution? That seems like the key point of HN interest!

hedora 2y ago

https://archive.ph/kzrqa https://archive.ph/kzrqa

chiph 2y ago

UV exposure can certainly cause this, but what about their train washing systems? They commonly have large rotating plastic brushes and if grit gets caught up in the brush it's going to sand anything with a lower Mohs hardness. Los Angeles Metro wash system - note that they use glass and don't have this problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1JxVOzAz6E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1JxVOzAz6E

yumraj 2y ago

Since this is polycarbonate can’t it be just buffed, like the car headlight cleaning products do, using a very fine sandpaper? It’ll just take a thin layer off and can then be polished. It should cost less than replacing, I think..

jandrese 2y ago
Reading the article it sounded like this was a job for those ceramic coatings they sell to fix this same problem on car headlights. It will be a lot of hours of buffing and applying coats of sealant to fix this, but compared to the cost of replacing the windows it seems like a bargain.

AlgoRitmo 2y ago

We are all looking at our phones anyway

theoldlove 2y ago

You can see just fine out of Metro North windows, which are apparently the same half-inch of polycarbonate glazing. So what’s the difference? Does Metro North replace the windows more frequently?

evanelias 2y ago
Likely due to less sun exposure -- either at their train yards, or the orientation of their lines being more north/south than east/west. Also, Metro-North's two west-of-Hudson lines (which are co-branded/shared with NJ Transit, in terms of tracks and rolling stock) do have this same problem.

Kon-Peki 2y ago

I found an article that quoted people at the Chicago commuter rail system (Metra) saying that their rail cars should get a major rehab (which includes new windows) every 14 years. Looking at Wikipedia, the NJ Transit rail cars with the affected windows would have started hitting 14 years old (they were getting 10 delivered per month for a few years) right as the Covid-19 pandemic started shutting everything down. This is most likely just bad timing, and because of budget issues, supply chain problems, lack of maintenance capacity, etc. - something that they haven’t fully recovered from. (Just a guess)