5 ms·

This is like the meme with a guy riding a bike sticking it in the front wheel, getting hurt and in this case blaming javascript. I don't get the hate against j

This is like the meme with a guy riding a bike sticking it in the front wheel, getting hurt and in this case blaming javascript. I don't get the hate against javascript tbh. With this, web components won't work I assume unless the license is known before hand? Or is that considered trivial? What about wasm? Does it block that? Javascript is at least better than wasm since you can inspect javascript. So people that hate javascript should really hate wasm.

nolist_policy 2y ago
They do not hate javascript/wasm software per se but non-free software.
- ecmascript 2y ago
  So how do you determine if a wasm blob is non-free?
  - Y_Y 2y ago
    If it's free them it should say so, under what license, and provide you the original source before compilation or whatever.
    - gbalduzzi 2y ago
      So every webpage should send the whole source code at each page render? That's not very efficient. Also, how can the plugin know if the provided source code is correct without compiling it and comparing the outputs?
      - Y_Y 2y ago
        A moment's thought will hopefully provide you with the answer to both those questions
      - maxlybbert 2y ago
        You clearly aren’t familiar with GNU or the Free Software Foundation. There’s nothing wrong with that: everybody starts out without being familiar with anything. In a nutshell, Richard Stallman worked in MIT’s AI lab in the 1970s. The lab had a certain ethos that he loved ( https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html , https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/stallman-kth.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/stallman-kth.en.html ), but when it became common for software to be sold without the source code, he actually decided to start a foundation to recreate that lab ethos ( https://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.en.html https://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.en.html ). A lot of programmers agree with his view that refusing to give users source code, and legal permission to use that source code without restriction, is a terrible afront to freedom. However, people have spent decades telling Stallman that if they adopted his principles, they couldn’t use their computers in the modern world. Every so often, he makes a declaration about various distinctions (it’s okay to use a computer even though the firmware isn’t free; it’s okay to read documents on the web, but any JavaScript should be treated as a program and you should insist on an acceptable license; he, personally doesn’t own a cell phone, but sees no problem with using somebody else’s non-free phone in a case-by-case basis; etc.). This is simply an extension to enforce one of his rules. Some programmers will feel bad about themselves if they don’t live up to Stallman’s expectations.
        Y_Y 2y ago
        Thank you for writing such a kind and helpful comment and really putting to shame my lazy sarcasm in the sibling.
        maxlybbert 2y ago
        I’m honestly surprised I didn’t get any “how dare you say it’s all about feeling bad if we don’t do what Stallman says?” comments. I was trying to play it as straight as I could, without sounding like a crank. I’m not always successful.
      - rakoo 2y ago
        GNU licenses don't mandate for the source code to be sent all te time. It only says that it must be available upon request, and the author must give pointers to get it (an url to download content or inspect it, an email to ask, ...)
        gbalduzzi 2y ago
        I'm talking about this library, not free software in general. How can it know when to block a website? Does an human curate a white/black list of valid websites?
        rakoo 2y ago
        It checks for the license header that developers should put in the served file. It does some exceptions for trivial code
    - ecmascript 2y ago
      Couple of issues with that, how does this plugin know that this wasm-blob is together with a certain source? Since wasm is often the compile target and don't have comments afaik how do you really tell the plugin what license it is? I guess what I am really asking is how would it say so? Because even if it is free software I assume this plugin would block it anyway since it don't know. You could write an html comment just above it but how will I as a website owner know that this plugin: 1. Exists. 2. How to respect it. There are plenty of plugins but this seems just like a plugin if you like to suffer when you really don't have to. I can kind of understand the goal of the FSF and I do hate some modern software today and companies trying to remove ownership but I have never thought the way FSF is doing stuff is a good way to reach their goal.
EnergyAmy 2y ago
Blocking web components would be great. That whole idea needs to be removed from browsers and rethought from the ground up.
- spankalee 2y ago
  Nah, web components are great.

nolist_policy 2y ago

They do not hate javascript/wasm software per se but non-free software.

ecmascript 2y ago
So how do you determine if a wasm blob is non-free?
- Y_Y 2y ago
  If it's free them it should say so, under what license, and provide you the original source before compilation or whatever.
  - gbalduzzi 2y ago
    So every webpage should send the whole source code at each page render? That's not very efficient. Also, how can the plugin know if the provided source code is correct without compiling it and comparing the outputs?
    - Y_Y 2y ago
      A moment's thought will hopefully provide you with the answer to both those questions
    - maxlybbert 2y ago
      You clearly aren’t familiar with GNU or the Free Software Foundation. There’s nothing wrong with that: everybody starts out without being familiar with anything. In a nutshell, Richard Stallman worked in MIT’s AI lab in the 1970s. The lab had a certain ethos that he loved ( https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html , https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/stallman-kth.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/stallman-kth.en.html ), but when it became common for software to be sold without the source code, he actually decided to start a foundation to recreate that lab ethos ( https://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.en.html https://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.en.html ). A lot of programmers agree with his view that refusing to give users source code, and legal permission to use that source code without restriction, is a terrible afront to freedom. However, people have spent decades telling Stallman that if they adopted his principles, they couldn’t use their computers in the modern world. Every so often, he makes a declaration about various distinctions (it’s okay to use a computer even though the firmware isn’t free; it’s okay to read documents on the web, but any JavaScript should be treated as a program and you should insist on an acceptable license; he, personally doesn’t own a cell phone, but sees no problem with using somebody else’s non-free phone in a case-by-case basis; etc.). This is simply an extension to enforce one of his rules. Some programmers will feel bad about themselves if they don’t live up to Stallman’s expectations.
      - Y_Y 2y ago
        Thank you for writing such a kind and helpful comment and really putting to shame my lazy sarcasm in the sibling.
        maxlybbert 2y ago
        I’m honestly surprised I didn’t get any “how dare you say it’s all about feeling bad if we don’t do what Stallman says?” comments. I was trying to play it as straight as I could, without sounding like a crank. I’m not always successful.
    - rakoo 2y ago
      GNU licenses don't mandate for the source code to be sent all te time. It only says that it must be available upon request, and the author must give pointers to get it (an url to download content or inspect it, an email to ask, ...)
      - gbalduzzi 2y ago
        I'm talking about this library, not free software in general. How can it know when to block a website? Does an human curate a white/black list of valid websites?
        rakoo 2y ago
        It checks for the license header that developers should put in the served file. It does some exceptions for trivial code
  - ecmascript 2y ago
    Couple of issues with that, how does this plugin know that this wasm-blob is together with a certain source? Since wasm is often the compile target and don't have comments afaik how do you really tell the plugin what license it is? I guess what I am really asking is how would it say so? Because even if it is free software I assume this plugin would block it anyway since it don't know. You could write an html comment just above it but how will I as a website owner know that this plugin: 1. Exists. 2. How to respect it. There are plenty of plugins but this seems just like a plugin if you like to suffer when you really don't have to. I can kind of understand the goal of the FSF and I do hate some modern software today and companies trying to remove ownership but I have never thought the way FSF is doing stuff is a good way to reach their goal.

EnergyAmy 2y ago

Blocking web components would be great. That whole idea needs to be removed from browsers and rethought from the ground up.

spankalee 2y ago
Nah, web components are great.