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Reading this i just think of the Fassbinder movie The Third Generation, where the protestors, in causing civil disobedience for their higher values, are really

Reading this i just think of the Fassbinder movie The Third Generation, where the protestors, in causing civil disobedience for their higher values, are really supported and lead on by the commercial interests of their parents. In this case, while the protestors say they are against all car manufacturers, only Tesla is new to the massively automotive dominant corporate scene. Their ideological stand only serves the entrenched powers. But very typisch Berlin in any case, no one can be surprised!

WhereIsTheTruth 2y ago
[flagged]
Rinzler89 2y ago
>the protestors say they are against all car manufacturers Which is ironic, considering the German economy supporting their education system, healthcare system, and welfare state that gave them that comfy lifestyle enabling them to have the time, money and freedom to protest without starving to death or being in debt for their education and healthcare, was built and funded in large part by that auto industry they're protesting against. There's something poetic about it here. It's great to live in a country where you have the luxury to protest against investors bringing local jobs, since a lot of people in rich western nations take this for granted, as people in less fortunate nations, even very close to Germany, would kill to have Elon build a Tesla fab in their city and give them jobs (not that I'm a fan of his, quite the contrary, but more jobs on the market is always better for employees).
- eesmith 2y ago
  You've made effectively the same argument used against white students who went into the Deep South US in the 1960s to help the civil rights movement. While those white students benefited from being raised in a segregationist culture - it gave them the time, money, and freedom to protest segregation - those benefits don't justify continued segregation.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >You've made effectively the same argument used against white students who went into the Deep South US in the 1960s to help the civil rights movement. I'm sure I definitely haven't, but with enough mental gymnastics I see how one can draw such parallels. >those benefits don't justify [X] And where did I say it's justified? All I did was point out the realities of what's happening, kind like a news reporter. I don't have a dog in this fight.
    - josephg 2y ago
      > All I did was point out the realities of what's happening, like a news reporter. I don't have a dog in this fight. You clearly do. And I’m not going to pile on and disagree with your opinion, but your comment up thread expresses a pretty clear point of view about what you think of the well off who are berliners protesting Tesla. It’s not “just the facts”. It’s the facts obviously interpreted through your view of the world. Your psychoanalysis of the protesters. Your judgement of the “irony” of their actions. Most news is like this, yes. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing. But your “realities of what’s happening” are clearly different from that of other people. Let’s not pretend your point of view is in any way objective.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - Rinzler89 2y ago
        >You clearly do. How so? I don't own any Tesla stock, I don't live in Germany, I don't work for the auto industry, and I'm not part of the protesters. All I have is my bucket of popcorn and front row seat. Don't pretend you know me and make false accusations or I'll have to end this conversation here if you keep making arguments in bad faith. >Let’s not pretend your point of view is in any way objective. Then who's point of view is objective here then, given your logic? God's? Aliens'? Isn't every reported piece out there someone's own opinion and interpretation on the matter through their world view?
        2y ago
- exe34 2y ago
  As long as they don't deny the fact that those industries funded their education, I don't think there's anything ironic about this. If your parents had slaves that grew and cooked your food, made clothes for you and taught you an education, would it mean you can never speak out against slavery? I'm not supporting or opposing their point of view and actions here, but I do believe it is perfectly reasonable to take a stand against something you consider immoral or unfair. My own decent lifestyle (and yours) can be traced to the technological progress that led to the current unfortunate climate and ecological trajectory - that doesn't mean I can't say "this isn't right, there are things we can do better". I won't, because ultimately I'm selfish and I really don't care, but if I did care, it wouldn't be wrong of me to stand up and be vocal about it.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    > would it mean you can never speak out against slavery? Of course not, but it's easier to speak against something when you already built your wealth on that something. It's effectively then like pulling the ladder form under you. >but I do believe it is perfectly reasonable to take a stand against something you consider immoral or unfair. So do I, but like I said, that something they're taking a stand against put food on the table for 1-2 generations. They need to first find an equally lucrative field before cutting the cord on the old one, otherwise a generation of workers will be left jobless and their country will have a huge hole in their budget. It's not as easy to give up on something bad, if so many livelihoods(and votes) depend on that.
- sapphicsnail 2y ago
  Do you think if you explained to these protesters that the Tesla factory will stimulate the economy and that they should be grateful they would change their minds? If Germany is anything like the US, these people are willing to risk their personal safety to fight for their beliefs. Maybe you should try to understand why someone would make such a choice instead of writing them off as ill-informed?
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > people are willing to risk their personal safety to fight for their beliefs Lots of people have stupid beliefs, and the German greens have a notorious penchant for them. Protests should be listened to, because civic activation takes effort. But a lot of them are protest movements first out looking for causes, or thinly-veiled NIMBYism, and this looks like a little bit of both. (Protesting expansion in all cases versus advocating for capping water use, for example.)
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >Do you think if you explained to these protesters that the Tesla factory will stimulate the economy and that they should be grateful they would change their minds? Nope, because, like I already said, they most likely have an environment and a lifestyle that allows them the legal and financial freedom to not depend on Tesla's jobs for survival, which is why I said that's a luxury they should cherish. Other countries and other people can't be so choosy to protest against more employment in their area, which I'm not sure the protesters or the HN comments replying to me can empathize with. Or, to put it differently, it's easy to protest against a company you despise, when your employment is an another field, your stomach is full and your bed is warm and you have a welfare state to fund you when you don't, but a lot of people on this planet are not so fortunate. I hope It's clear now and I won't have to repeat this point for the third time. >If Germany is anything like the US, these people are willing to risk their personal safety to fight for their beliefs. Very good. Chapeau to them. > instead of writing them off as ill-informed? Where did I do that? Maybe read my comment again, but without the lens.
  - XajniN 2y ago
    > writing them off as ill-informed? They are not ill-informed, they are ignorant and/or evil.

WhereIsTheTruth 2y ago

[flagged]

Rinzler89 2y ago

>the protestors say they are against all car manufacturers Which is ironic, considering the German economy supporting their education system, healthcare system, and welfare state that gave them that comfy lifestyle enabling them to have the time, money and freedom to protest without starving to death or being in debt for their education and healthcare, was built and funded in large part by that auto industry they're protesting against. There's something poetic about it here. It's great to live in a country where you have the luxury to protest against investors bringing local jobs, since a lot of people in rich western nations take this for granted, as people in less fortunate nations, even very close to Germany, would kill to have Elon build a Tesla fab in their city and give them jobs (not that I'm a fan of his, quite the contrary, but more jobs on the market is always better for employees).

eesmith 2y ago
You've made effectively the same argument used against white students who went into the Deep South US in the 1960s to help the civil rights movement. While those white students benefited from being raised in a segregationist culture - it gave them the time, money, and freedom to protest segregation - those benefits don't justify continued segregation.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >You've made effectively the same argument used against white students who went into the Deep South US in the 1960s to help the civil rights movement. I'm sure I definitely haven't, but with enough mental gymnastics I see how one can draw such parallels. >those benefits don't justify [X] And where did I say it's justified? All I did was point out the realities of what's happening, kind like a news reporter. I don't have a dog in this fight.
  - josephg 2y ago
    > All I did was point out the realities of what's happening, like a news reporter. I don't have a dog in this fight. You clearly do. And I’m not going to pile on and disagree with your opinion, but your comment up thread expresses a pretty clear point of view about what you think of the well off who are berliners protesting Tesla. It’s not “just the facts”. It’s the facts obviously interpreted through your view of the world. Your psychoanalysis of the protesters. Your judgement of the “irony” of their actions. Most news is like this, yes. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing. But your “realities of what’s happening” are clearly different from that of other people. Let’s not pretend your point of view is in any way objective.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      >You clearly do. How so? I don't own any Tesla stock, I don't live in Germany, I don't work for the auto industry, and I'm not part of the protesters. All I have is my bucket of popcorn and front row seat. Don't pretend you know me and make false accusations or I'll have to end this conversation here if you keep making arguments in bad faith. >Let’s not pretend your point of view is in any way objective. Then who's point of view is objective here then, given your logic? God's? Aliens'? Isn't every reported piece out there someone's own opinion and interpretation on the matter through their world view?
      - 2y ago
exe34 2y ago
As long as they don't deny the fact that those industries funded their education, I don't think there's anything ironic about this. If your parents had slaves that grew and cooked your food, made clothes for you and taught you an education, would it mean you can never speak out against slavery? I'm not supporting or opposing their point of view and actions here, but I do believe it is perfectly reasonable to take a stand against something you consider immoral or unfair. My own decent lifestyle (and yours) can be traced to the technological progress that led to the current unfortunate climate and ecological trajectory - that doesn't mean I can't say "this isn't right, there are things we can do better". I won't, because ultimately I'm selfish and I really don't care, but if I did care, it wouldn't be wrong of me to stand up and be vocal about it.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  > would it mean you can never speak out against slavery? Of course not, but it's easier to speak against something when you already built your wealth on that something. It's effectively then like pulling the ladder form under you. >but I do believe it is perfectly reasonable to take a stand against something you consider immoral or unfair. So do I, but like I said, that something they're taking a stand against put food on the table for 1-2 generations. They need to first find an equally lucrative field before cutting the cord on the old one, otherwise a generation of workers will be left jobless and their country will have a huge hole in their budget. It's not as easy to give up on something bad, if so many livelihoods(and votes) depend on that.
sapphicsnail 2y ago
Do you think if you explained to these protesters that the Tesla factory will stimulate the economy and that they should be grateful they would change their minds? If Germany is anything like the US, these people are willing to risk their personal safety to fight for their beliefs. Maybe you should try to understand why someone would make such a choice instead of writing them off as ill-informed?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > people are willing to risk their personal safety to fight for their beliefs Lots of people have stupid beliefs, and the German greens have a notorious penchant for them. Protests should be listened to, because civic activation takes effort. But a lot of them are protest movements first out looking for causes, or thinly-veiled NIMBYism, and this looks like a little bit of both. (Protesting expansion in all cases versus advocating for capping water use, for example.)
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >Do you think if you explained to these protesters that the Tesla factory will stimulate the economy and that they should be grateful they would change their minds? Nope, because, like I already said, they most likely have an environment and a lifestyle that allows them the legal and financial freedom to not depend on Tesla's jobs for survival, which is why I said that's a luxury they should cherish. Other countries and other people can't be so choosy to protest against more employment in their area, which I'm not sure the protesters or the HN comments replying to me can empathize with. Or, to put it differently, it's easy to protest against a company you despise, when your employment is an another field, your stomach is full and your bed is warm and you have a welfare state to fund you when you don't, but a lot of people on this planet are not so fortunate. I hope It's clear now and I won't have to repeat this point for the third time. >If Germany is anything like the US, these people are willing to risk their personal safety to fight for their beliefs. Very good. Chapeau to them. > instead of writing them off as ill-informed? Where did I do that? Maybe read my comment again, but without the lens.
- XajniN 2y ago
  > writing them off as ill-informed? They are not ill-informed, they are ignorant and/or evil.