7 ms·

Swipos-GIS/GEO, nationwide GNSS RTK correction for centimeter accurate location

67 points by RedlineTriad 2y ago

poulpy123 2y ago
In France and Hungary there is the centipede network https://docs.centipede.fr/ https://docs.centipede.fr/
RedlineTriad 2y ago
I just learned that Switzerland has a nationwide RTK network for cm level positional accuracy using GPS, Galileo, GALILEO, and/or Beidou, GNSS systems. And they have a nice map of all the station locations[0]. It's a bit of shame that the pricing seems to be rather steep for frivolous use, but it seems to be rather new. It would be interesting to see what possibilities a totally free nationwide RTK system would open up. Swisstopo is a government organization that already provides many services like highly accurate maps for free. [0] https://shop.swipos.ch/Map/SensorMap.aspx https://shop.swipos.ch/Map/SensorMap.aspx
- ale42 2y ago
  I'm not totally sure why, but it was free for nonprofit research (university) use until 1-2 years ago. Now it's still cheaper than for the rest of the users, but still very expensive also for researchers.
- friendly_capy 2y ago
  In Portugal there are 2 already, one free and one paid. The free one was implemented almost 20 years ago. It amazes me that a country like Switzlerland only now implemented such a service, and quite expensive, nonetheless.
  - Leherenn 2y ago
    It's been running since 2016 at least in Switzerland, I was using it back then. And well, nothing is cheap in Switzerland. :)
  - Gys 2y ago
    Which network in Portugal provides this service for free?
- ftth_finland 2y ago
  Finland has a free nationwide RTK network. It’s nominally only for testing and R&D use, tho, and you have to renew your account every three months. https://www.maanmittauslaitos.fi/en/finpos/rtk https://www.maanmittauslaitos.fi/en/finpos/rtk However, you can easily setup your own RTK base station for a few hundred bucks. Very convenient to use the free service to determine the static coordinates of your base station.
- michaelt 2y ago
  > It's a bit of shame that the pricing seems to be rather steep for frivolous use The pricing norms for RTK correction networks were set 20 years ago, when operating your own base station meant buying a second $20,000 dual frequency receiver, and taking an extra guy any time you go out to do a survey, whose job is just to guard the base station. This made a $2000 a year network correction service seem like great value for money! Some networks offer more affordable options these days - such as weekly and hourly licenses for drone pilots.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    This should be another crowdsourced sensor fabric network, like air quality sensors, AIS, ADS-B, distributed SDR, etc.
    - barnabee 2y ago
      https://www.onocoy.com/ https://www.onocoy.com/ seems to be doing just that. I have no affiliation, and no strong opinion on their specific approach, but I do find it interesting and have thought about running a node, especially since enjoying fiddling around with LoRa / Meshtastic.
    - gytisgreitai 2y ago
      http://rtk2go.com/ http://rtk2go.com/
      - BenjiWiebe 2y ago
        We've got a ublox ZED-F9P feeding into that. Station name JasonWiebeDairy. We set it up for RTK for AgOpenGPS - a FOSS auto-steer/mapping/control for agriculture.
    - summm 2y ago
      https://docs.centipede.fr/ https://docs.centipede.fr/ Currently only really working in France and Hungary.
  - RedlineTriad 2y ago
- stereo 2y ago
  Luxembourg's RTK system is completely free to use: https://act.public.lu/fr/gps-reseaux/spslux1.html https://act.public.lu/fr/gps-reseaux/spslux1.html
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
auspiv 2y ago
Many US states also have their own (free) CORS networks, primarily from transportation departments. NOAA helps keep track of them all. Not many of these are realtime unfortunately. https://geodesy.noaa.gov/CORS/ https://geodesy.noaa.gov/CORS/ US overview: https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=190385f9aadb4cf1b0dd8759893032db&extent=-30657930.8234%2C-3999003.0107%2C3507586.3314%2C12379311.914%2C102100&showLayers=17bf0a87f3a-layer-16%3B17bf0a87f38-layer-14%3B17bf0a87f36-layer-13 https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=19038...
banish-m4 2y ago
Real-Time Kinematic - Differential GNSS updates broadcasted by radio or other means that aid accuracy while moving. It was a Trimble (GPS) marketing term around 2000 just prior to SA that was able to defeat it and offer 10mm horizontal error and 1m vertical error. Disclaimer: I worked on firmware on RTK radio gear.
ck2 2y ago
I believe the various networks that supplement GPS/GNSS systems are called SBAS (the USA has WAAS for aircraft) and the fantastic opensource GPSTest app will show you what your device supports https://github.com/barbeau/gpstest https://github.com/barbeau/gpstest
- eqvinox 2y ago
  You're confusing 2 different things here. SBAS gets you (roughly) from 5m to 1m, to meet requirements for aviation use. RTK gets you from 5m to <0.1m. Both use base stations to monitor deviations, but for RTK the base station is intended to be <100km from you and the data needs to have as little delay as possible. SBAS base stations are a few per continent & don't care about delay to the same degree.
- BenjiWiebe 2y ago
  The SB in SBAS stands for satellite based. RTK is ground station based.
muyfine 2y ago
There was a survey of available GNSS corrections services from a couple of years ago - some of these services are global and not limited to a single country: https://medium.com/@mikehorton/what-is-a-mass-market-gnss-correction-network-do-they-work-for-survey-construction-and-farming-f41bd521f71c https://medium.com/@mikehorton/what-is-a-mass-market-gnss-co...
eqvinox 2y ago
It is worth mentioning that you can set up your own RTK installation buy grabbing 2 higher-end GNSS receivers¹, installing one of them in a fixed location with reasonable sky view, and measuring it in for a week or two. You can then feed correction data from that to your 2nd receiver. Search for RTKlib. (Some GNSS receivers even have built-in source & sink handling.) Also, the GNSS software in most phones is sadly unable to accept the correction data from any of these systems, regardless of whether it's a nationwide network or your personal setup. This is purely a software limitation on the vendor GNSS stack, but sadly there is not enough demand for this. (An app will not fix this, we're talking vendor specific low level system code here.) [¹] e.g. u-blox T/R series, but check specific descriptions about raw output/RTK capabilities, it changes between generations. You also want recent ones with RTCMv3, not RTCMv2.x.
- lxgr 2y ago
  Is that true even for the relatively new Android "raw GNSS" API? https://developer.android.com/develop/sensors-and-location/sensors/gnss https://developer.android.com/develop/sensors-and-location/s... I believe Google are using that themselves for their "urban canyon" GPS improvements: https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2020/12/improving-urban-gps-accuracy-for-your.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2020/12/improving-...
  - wibr 2y ago
    The API would provide pseudoranges and also the carrier phase on some phones, so it should be possible to calculate a solution with corrections.
  - aantix 2y ago
    Does this api improve on GPS drift? Or is it up to the engineer to decide how to best to use these improvements?
    - skzv 2y ago
      The raw measurements API provides raw GNSS measurements so that somebody can implement their own position engine, and do things like RTK. The corrections mentioned in the blog post are calculated by the phone (in Google Play Services, using Google's 3D building models) using the raw GNSS measurements, and provided back to the chipset to improve its position estimate (correcting for reflections and interference).
ShakataGaNai 2y ago
Andreas Spiess, the youtuber with a swiss accent, recently did a video on GNSS w/ RTK. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc1LBFDj2MA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc1LBFDj2MA Goes into detail about how to setup your own, join existing networks, even using fairly inexpensive tooling for your own RTK adventures.
- chpwssn 2y ago
  Sparkfun also has an interesting writeup on how you could set up a base station and feed into networks as well https://docs.sparkfun.com/SparkFun_RTK_Firmware/permanent_base/ https://docs.sparkfun.com/SparkFun_RTK_Firmware/permanent_ba...
- weinzierl 2y ago
  I love his channel, and not only because of the accent. True no nonsense stuff. His videos about LoRa are brilliant. I am especially gratefy for his video about power measurements of microcontrollers. It's really common sense for everyone with a little bit of electronics background but I've seen so many people (some who should have known better) just sticking a multimeter onto it and calling it a day that someone really explaining patiently and in simple terms, why this often does not really work is a godsend.
crtified 2y ago
It's always nice to see that RTK for-the-people is edging ever closer. DIY kits from the likes of (no endorsement or vouching-for implied!) SparkFun and Ardusimple prove that the actual cost of basic entry to the tech is already under $2K, and probably under $1K. It is a valuable ability for the average person to have available, because - whether we're talking about space, or time - everything benefits from accurate measurement.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
malteg 2y ago
worth to mention … http://rtk2go.com/ http://rtk2go.com/ RTK correction data is mainly free in Europe, just a hassle (eg state not nationwide) and a lot of paperwork todo, that’s why a lot of commercial providers exist…

67 points by RedlineTriad 2y ago

In France and Hungary there is the centipede network https://docs.centipede.fr/ https://docs.centipede.fr/

I just learned that Switzerland has a nationwide RTK network for cm level positional accuracy using GPS, Galileo, GALILEO, and/or Beidou, GNSS systems. And they have a nice map of all the station locations[0]. It's a bit of shame that the pricing seems to be rather steep for frivolous use, but it seems to be rather new. It would be interesting to see what possibilities a totally free nationwide RTK system would open up. Swisstopo is a government organization that already provides many services like highly accurate maps for free. [0] https://shop.swipos.ch/Map/SensorMap.aspx https://shop.swipos.ch/Map/SensorMap.aspx

ale42 2y ago
I'm not totally sure why, but it was free for nonprofit research (university) use until 1-2 years ago. Now it's still cheaper than for the rest of the users, but still very expensive also for researchers.
friendly_capy 2y ago
In Portugal there are 2 already, one free and one paid. The free one was implemented almost 20 years ago. It amazes me that a country like Switzlerland only now implemented such a service, and quite expensive, nonetheless.
- Leherenn 2y ago
  It's been running since 2016 at least in Switzerland, I was using it back then. And well, nothing is cheap in Switzerland. :)
- Gys 2y ago
  Which network in Portugal provides this service for free?
ftth_finland 2y ago
Finland has a free nationwide RTK network. It’s nominally only for testing and R&D use, tho, and you have to renew your account every three months. https://www.maanmittauslaitos.fi/en/finpos/rtk https://www.maanmittauslaitos.fi/en/finpos/rtk However, you can easily setup your own RTK base station for a few hundred bucks. Very convenient to use the free service to determine the static coordinates of your base station.
michaelt 2y ago
> It's a bit of shame that the pricing seems to be rather steep for frivolous use The pricing norms for RTK correction networks were set 20 years ago, when operating your own base station meant buying a second $20,000 dual frequency receiver, and taking an extra guy any time you go out to do a survey, whose job is just to guard the base station. This made a $2000 a year network correction service seem like great value for money! Some networks offer more affordable options these days - such as weekly and hourly licenses for drone pilots.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  This should be another crowdsourced sensor fabric network, like air quality sensors, AIS, ADS-B, distributed SDR, etc.
  - barnabee 2y ago
    https://www.onocoy.com/ https://www.onocoy.com/ seems to be doing just that. I have no affiliation, and no strong opinion on their specific approach, but I do find it interesting and have thought about running a node, especially since enjoying fiddling around with LoRa / Meshtastic.
  - gytisgreitai 2y ago
    http://rtk2go.com/ http://rtk2go.com/
    - BenjiWiebe 2y ago
      We've got a ublox ZED-F9P feeding into that. Station name JasonWiebeDairy. We set it up for RTK for AgOpenGPS - a FOSS auto-steer/mapping/control for agriculture.
  - summm 2y ago
    https://docs.centipede.fr/ https://docs.centipede.fr/ Currently only really working in France and Hungary.
- RedlineTriad 2y ago
stereo 2y ago
Luxembourg's RTK system is completely free to use: https://act.public.lu/fr/gps-reseaux/spslux1.html https://act.public.lu/fr/gps-reseaux/spslux1.html

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

auspiv 2y ago

Many US states also have their own (free) CORS networks, primarily from transportation departments. NOAA helps keep track of them all. Not many of these are realtime unfortunately. https://geodesy.noaa.gov/CORS/ https://geodesy.noaa.gov/CORS/ US overview: https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=190385f9aadb4cf1b0dd8759893032db&extent=-30657930.8234%2C-3999003.0107%2C3507586.3314%2C12379311.914%2C102100&showLayers=17bf0a87f3a-layer-16%3B17bf0a87f38-layer-14%3B17bf0a87f36-layer-13 https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=19038...

banish-m4 2y ago

Real-Time Kinematic - Differential GNSS updates broadcasted by radio or other means that aid accuracy while moving. It was a Trimble (GPS) marketing term around 2000 just prior to SA that was able to defeat it and offer 10mm horizontal error and 1m vertical error. Disclaimer: I worked on firmware on RTK radio gear.

ck2 2y ago

I believe the various networks that supplement GPS/GNSS systems are called SBAS (the USA has WAAS for aircraft) and the fantastic opensource GPSTest app will show you what your device supports https://github.com/barbeau/gpstest https://github.com/barbeau/gpstest

eqvinox 2y ago
You're confusing 2 different things here. SBAS gets you (roughly) from 5m to 1m, to meet requirements for aviation use. RTK gets you from 5m to <0.1m. Both use base stations to monitor deviations, but for RTK the base station is intended to be <100km from you and the data needs to have as little delay as possible. SBAS base stations are a few per continent & don't care about delay to the same degree.
BenjiWiebe 2y ago
The SB in SBAS stands for satellite based. RTK is ground station based.

muyfine 2y ago

There was a survey of available GNSS corrections services from a couple of years ago - some of these services are global and not limited to a single country: https://medium.com/@mikehorton/what-is-a-mass-market-gnss-correction-network-do-they-work-for-survey-construction-and-farming-f41bd521f71c https://medium.com/@mikehorton/what-is-a-mass-market-gnss-co...

eqvinox 2y ago

It is worth mentioning that you can set up your own RTK installation buy grabbing 2 higher-end GNSS receivers¹, installing one of them in a fixed location with reasonable sky view, and measuring it in for a week or two. You can then feed correction data from that to your 2nd receiver. Search for RTKlib. (Some GNSS receivers even have built-in source & sink handling.) Also, the GNSS software in most phones is sadly unable to accept the correction data from any of these systems, regardless of whether it's a nationwide network or your personal setup. This is purely a software limitation on the vendor GNSS stack, but sadly there is not enough demand for this. (An app will not fix this, we're talking vendor specific low level system code here.) [¹] e.g. u-blox T/R series, but check specific descriptions about raw output/RTK capabilities, it changes between generations. You also want recent ones with RTCMv3, not RTCMv2.x.

lxgr 2y ago
Is that true even for the relatively new Android "raw GNSS" API? https://developer.android.com/develop/sensors-and-location/sensors/gnss https://developer.android.com/develop/sensors-and-location/s... I believe Google are using that themselves for their "urban canyon" GPS improvements: https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2020/12/improving-urban-gps-accuracy-for-your.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2020/12/improving-...
- wibr 2y ago
  The API would provide pseudoranges and also the carrier phase on some phones, so it should be possible to calculate a solution with corrections.
- aantix 2y ago
  Does this api improve on GPS drift? Or is it up to the engineer to decide how to best to use these improvements?
  - skzv 2y ago
    The raw measurements API provides raw GNSS measurements so that somebody can implement their own position engine, and do things like RTK. The corrections mentioned in the blog post are calculated by the phone (in Google Play Services, using Google's 3D building models) using the raw GNSS measurements, and provided back to the chipset to improve its position estimate (correcting for reflections and interference).

ShakataGaNai 2y ago

Andreas Spiess, the youtuber with a swiss accent, recently did a video on GNSS w/ RTK. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc1LBFDj2MA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc1LBFDj2MA Goes into detail about how to setup your own, join existing networks, even using fairly inexpensive tooling for your own RTK adventures.

chpwssn 2y ago
Sparkfun also has an interesting writeup on how you could set up a base station and feed into networks as well https://docs.sparkfun.com/SparkFun_RTK_Firmware/permanent_base/ https://docs.sparkfun.com/SparkFun_RTK_Firmware/permanent_ba...
weinzierl 2y ago
I love his channel, and not only because of the accent. True no nonsense stuff. His videos about LoRa are brilliant. I am especially gratefy for his video about power measurements of microcontrollers. It's really common sense for everyone with a little bit of electronics background but I've seen so many people (some who should have known better) just sticking a multimeter onto it and calling it a day that someone really explaining patiently and in simple terms, why this often does not really work is a godsend.

crtified 2y ago

It's always nice to see that RTK for-the-people is edging ever closer. DIY kits from the likes of (no endorsement or vouching-for implied!) SparkFun and Ardusimple prove that the actual cost of basic entry to the tech is already under $2K, and probably under $1K. It is a valuable ability for the average person to have available, because - whether we're talking about space, or time - everything benefits from accurate measurement.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

malteg 2y ago

worth to mention … http://rtk2go.com/ http://rtk2go.com/ RTK correction data is mainly free in Europe, just a hassle (eg state not nationwide) and a lot of paperwork todo, that’s why a lot of commercial providers exist…