7 ms·

:( given the KDE developers (and other devs) did spend a lot time to ensure the applications they create work not just in their personal favorite desktop enviro

:( given the KDE developers (and other devs) did spend a lot time to ensure the applications they create work not just in their personal favorite desktop environment, this is all rather unfortunate, as it is now like it is in a released distro...

Intralexical 2y ago
GNOME as a project has consistently made itself clear on how it feels about the rest of the desktop Linux ecosystem existing, or working well with it: 2012 — https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/ https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotti... 2021 — https://joshuastrobl.com/2021/09/14/building-an-alternative-ecosystem/ https://joshuastrobl.com/2021/09/14/building-an-alternative-... 2023 — https://felipec.wordpress.com/2023/03/04/one-decade-later-gnome-still-sucks/ https://felipec.wordpress.com/2023/03/04/one-decade-later-gn... 2023 — https://medium.com/@fulalas/gnome-mess-is-not-an-accident-4e301032670c https://medium.com/@fulalas/gnome-mess-is-not-an-accident-4e... Nobody should be surprised anymore when GNOME pulls some shady and technically questionable crap to try to make their "product" look better by actively breaking other people's work.
- logicprog 2y ago
  That first link especially is hyperbolic disingenuous bad faith nonsense. It draws completely wild conclusions that simply don't follow from the GNOME dev quotes or GNOME's behavior it lists in its support. Trying to have a consistent coherent vision for their own project isn't the same as trying to lock users into their project, let alone trying to sabotage other people's projects, nor do they ever say that's what they want to do, or that they view users as "walking billboards", just that they want GNOME to have a consistent experience so they can have basic quality assurance. They're basically trying to avoid the "carrier customized Android" problem. I glanced briefly over the other articles and it seems like they're the same utter drivel, additionally repeating tiresome, worn out, utterly stupid and wrong claims like that GNOME is "a mobile-first" interface or "not suited to the desktop." I use nearly completely vanilla GNOME every day on my desktop, as a power user, and it's amazing --- far better, in fact, than KDE or any other DE I've tried. I've explained at length why, and why their UX choices were justified, before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39985533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39985533
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - Affric 2y ago
    I still prefer MacOS to GNOME. But KDE always just feels like a mess. And everyone's defence is that you can tidy it up any way you like? There is value in that. GNOME and MacOS can sometimes feel like straight jackets. But you know, I would rather just not fiddle with the DE and actually get down to doing whatever it is I do. And KDE just doesn't give me that with the default experience. GNOME works great 90% of the time as my DE. That's more than the 20% KDE has got for me.
  - Intralexical 2y ago
    > That first link especially is hyperbolic disingenuous bad faith nonsense. … I glanced briefly over the other articles and it seems like they're the same utter drivel… …I've explained at length why, and why their UX choices were justified, before… Yep. There we go. Saying anything about GNOME that isn't adoring praise immediately draws out the victim-playing accusations of bad faith, and refusal to engage with the actual problems. How dare anybody scrutinize the way GNOME developers treat and conduct themselves around other people. Nobody can ask GNOME to listen to them, but everybody else must listen to GNOME. There's genuinely something strange going on with the mindset around the whole project; it's like they've actively weeded out anybody with any functioning empathy, self-awareness, or non-zero neuroplasticity… It's not GNOME that's crazy; it's literally everybody else [1][2][3][4][5][6[][7][8][9][10] that's ever tried to work with GNOME! They must be out to get you. --- 1: Solus/Budgie — See second link above. 2: Linux Mint — https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4149#comment-239629 https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4149#comment-239629 https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Mint-More-GNOME-Forks https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Mint-More-GNOME-Forks > We want to send a strong signal upstream and towards other projects. We cannot and will not support applications which do not support our users and environments. 3: Transmission — https://trac.transmissionbt.com/ticket/3685 https://trac.transmissionbt.com/ticket/3685 (Cited in first link, which you dismissed as "Hyperbolic disingenuous bad faith nonsense".) 4: System76 (as villified by GNOME) — https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/10/system76_gnome_desktop_fight/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/10/system76_gnome_deskto... (Mentioned in second link, which again you dismissed as "utterly stupid and wrong" "utter drivel".) 5: SpaceFM — https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687752 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687752 6: Inkscape developer — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFGXVN9dZ8U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFGXVN9dZ8U > …you talk with people and you get an exasperated sigh, like "Why are you bothering to like report this issue to me?," or like "Why are you asking this question, it's stupid." It's a bit caustic. 7: Ubuntu (though diplomatic) — https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/ubuntu-desktop-gnome-plans-for-the-incoming-lts/26156 https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/ubuntu-desktop-gnome-plans-fo... 8: Wayland — https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hnoksv/comment/fxfax76/ https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hnoksv/comment/fxfax... > They just skip "embrace" and "extend" and just go straight to "extinguish". …They don't just decline to implement standards, they actively work against the establishment of standards at all. (Cited in the fourth link.) 9: Kernel (Linus Torvalds and Alan Cox) — https://itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/torvalds-pours-scorn-on-de-icazas-desktop-claims.html https://itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/torvalds-pou... > The gnome people have their problems. They do seem to like to blame pretty much anything but themselves. 10: Subsurface (Konstantin Bläsi) — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON0A1dsQOV0&t=6m8s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON0A1dsQOV0&t=6m8s > There is no way to get an answer. The only thing you can get is abuse. It's literally endless.

Intralexical 2y ago

GNOME as a project has consistently made itself clear on how it feels about the rest of the desktop Linux ecosystem existing, or working well with it: 2012 — https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/ https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotti... 2021 — https://joshuastrobl.com/2021/09/14/building-an-alternative-ecosystem/ https://joshuastrobl.com/2021/09/14/building-an-alternative-... 2023 — https://felipec.wordpress.com/2023/03/04/one-decade-later-gnome-still-sucks/ https://felipec.wordpress.com/2023/03/04/one-decade-later-gn... 2023 — https://medium.com/@fulalas/gnome-mess-is-not-an-accident-4e301032670c https://medium.com/@fulalas/gnome-mess-is-not-an-accident-4e... Nobody should be surprised anymore when GNOME pulls some shady and technically questionable crap to try to make their "product" look better by actively breaking other people's work.

logicprog 2y ago
That first link especially is hyperbolic disingenuous bad faith nonsense. It draws completely wild conclusions that simply don't follow from the GNOME dev quotes or GNOME's behavior it lists in its support. Trying to have a consistent coherent vision for their own project isn't the same as trying to lock users into their project, let alone trying to sabotage other people's projects, nor do they ever say that's what they want to do, or that they view users as "walking billboards", just that they want GNOME to have a consistent experience so they can have basic quality assurance. They're basically trying to avoid the "carrier customized Android" problem. I glanced briefly over the other articles and it seems like they're the same utter drivel, additionally repeating tiresome, worn out, utterly stupid and wrong claims like that GNOME is "a mobile-first" interface or "not suited to the desktop." I use nearly completely vanilla GNOME every day on my desktop, as a power user, and it's amazing --- far better, in fact, than KDE or any other DE I've tried. I've explained at length why, and why their UX choices were justified, before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39985533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39985533
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Affric 2y ago
  I still prefer MacOS to GNOME. But KDE always just feels like a mess. And everyone's defence is that you can tidy it up any way you like? There is value in that. GNOME and MacOS can sometimes feel like straight jackets. But you know, I would rather just not fiddle with the DE and actually get down to doing whatever it is I do. And KDE just doesn't give me that with the default experience. GNOME works great 90% of the time as my DE. That's more than the 20% KDE has got for me.
- Intralexical 2y ago
  > That first link especially is hyperbolic disingenuous bad faith nonsense. … I glanced briefly over the other articles and it seems like they're the same utter drivel… …I've explained at length why, and why their UX choices were justified, before… Yep. There we go. Saying anything about GNOME that isn't adoring praise immediately draws out the victim-playing accusations of bad faith, and refusal to engage with the actual problems. How dare anybody scrutinize the way GNOME developers treat and conduct themselves around other people. Nobody can ask GNOME to listen to them, but everybody else must listen to GNOME. There's genuinely something strange going on with the mindset around the whole project; it's like they've actively weeded out anybody with any functioning empathy, self-awareness, or non-zero neuroplasticity… It's not GNOME that's crazy; it's literally everybody else [1][2][3][4][5][6[][7][8][9][10] that's ever tried to work with GNOME! They must be out to get you. --- 1: Solus/Budgie — See second link above. 2: Linux Mint — https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4149#comment-239629 https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4149#comment-239629 https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Mint-More-GNOME-Forks https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Mint-More-GNOME-Forks > We want to send a strong signal upstream and towards other projects. We cannot and will not support applications which do not support our users and environments. 3: Transmission — https://trac.transmissionbt.com/ticket/3685 https://trac.transmissionbt.com/ticket/3685 (Cited in first link, which you dismissed as "Hyperbolic disingenuous bad faith nonsense".) 4: System76 (as villified by GNOME) — https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/10/system76_gnome_desktop_fight/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/10/system76_gnome_deskto... (Mentioned in second link, which again you dismissed as "utterly stupid and wrong" "utter drivel".) 5: SpaceFM — https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687752 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687752 6: Inkscape developer — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFGXVN9dZ8U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFGXVN9dZ8U > …you talk with people and you get an exasperated sigh, like "Why are you bothering to like report this issue to me?," or like "Why are you asking this question, it's stupid." It's a bit caustic. 7: Ubuntu (though diplomatic) — https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/ubuntu-desktop-gnome-plans-for-the-incoming-lts/26156 https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/ubuntu-desktop-gnome-plans-fo... 8: Wayland — https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hnoksv/comment/fxfax76/ https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hnoksv/comment/fxfax... > They just skip "embrace" and "extend" and just go straight to "extinguish". …They don't just decline to implement standards, they actively work against the establishment of standards at all. (Cited in the fourth link.) 9: Kernel (Linus Torvalds and Alan Cox) — https://itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/torvalds-pours-scorn-on-de-icazas-desktop-claims.html https://itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/torvalds-pou... > The gnome people have their problems. They do seem to like to blame pretty much anything but themselves. 10: Subsurface (Konstantin Bläsi) — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON0A1dsQOV0&t=6m8s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON0A1dsQOV0&t=6m8s > There is no way to get an answer. The only thing you can get is abuse. It's literally endless.