5 ms·

6 years is not enough jail time for this.

n4r9 2y ago
What he did is reprehensible. But comments like this are emotively loaded and provoke the ongoing debate around the purpose of jail term. In my opinion, even this length of sentence has a high chance of producing a hardened, bitter criminal with hacking skills.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > even this length of sentence has a high chance of producing a hardened, bitter criminal with hacking skills Given the guy’s arrest record (and implied lack of rehabilitation), a longer sentence would serve the goal of incapacitation.
  - n4r9 2y ago
    It would temporarily serve that goal, but also expose him to a large network of criminals and give him a reason to hate society even more.
    - VS1999 2y ago
      What would this large network of criminals do? Perhaps they should be in isolation if they're that negative an influence.
      - jjmarr 2y ago
        Other criminals can teach him how to not get caught or recruit him into larger organizations. Prison is like a startup incubator for gangs. When you put a bunch of people with similar interests in one place it's a great networking opportunity.
    - renewiltord 2y ago
      Oderint dum impotentes
      - n4r9 2y ago
        et postea?
- UberFly 2y ago
  Removing people from society is what we do when they do these kind of terrible things to others. 6 years of removal isn't enough. The debate you refer to is a separate thing.
  - n4r9 2y ago
    > is what we do This sounds a little like an appeal to tradition, unless I'm misunderstanding you. Removal from society is absolutely one of the intended purposes of prison, but as with all traditions it must be open to challenge and debate.
- XCabbage 2y ago
  > even this length of sentence has a high chance of producing a hardened, bitter criminal with hacking skills. You present this as an argument for a shorter sentence. But from another perspective, it's an argument for never letting him out. Prison isn't primarily meant to rehabilitate; you are almost certainly right that it will do the exact opposite in this case. Its power to deter is also limited. But what it can do, if we are simply willing to use it for that purpose, is contain dangerous people and prevent them from harming others again by simply not giving them the opportunity to do so.
  - n4r9 2y ago
    > it's an argument for never letting him out It is an argument, although that might count as unusually cruel or disproportionate for a crime like this. Even murderers in Finland are typically pardoned and released after 12-15 years.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Even murderers in Finland are typically pardoned and released after 12-15 years What about serial murderers? The damning part—to me—isn’t the crime per se but the repeat offenses. The Finnish system is famously good at rehabilitating criminals. But what do you do with the edge cases? (I guess our system, which excels at incapacitation and retribution, has its edge cases in the unjustly imprisoned. Put that way, having the edge default to letting out a few incurable criminals from time to time might be the fairer solution.)
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        This is generally well handled. https://apnews.com/article/science-norway-europe-oslo-crime-bdd56073c42dc2066640095d7e62b048 https://apnews.com/article/science-norway-europe-oslo-crime-... > While the maximum prison sentence in Norway is 21 years, the law was amended in 2002 so that, in rare cases, sentences can be extended indefinitely in five-year increments if someone is still considered a danger to the public.
      - ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
- skilled 2y ago
  Finnish Criminal Policy: From Hard Time to Gentle Justice (https://epublications.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1057&context=socs_fac#:~:text=From%20a%20post%20war%20crime,low%20compared%20to%20international%20standards https://epublications.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti....) > From a post war crime boom and relatively high incarceration rates, Finnish prisons have emerged to be counted among the most humane correctional facilities in the world and yet, recidivism is very low compared to international standards. Sounds similar to that of Norway which is known for its kind/compassionate treatment of prisoners.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    "Lax" is probably not the term here, given the low recidivism.
    - skilled 2y ago
      Thanks, changed it.
    - thfuran 2y ago
      Perhaps "effective".
- zaphod12 2y ago
  Not looking to argue directly about the punishment, but I think it's quite clear that this individuals is ALREADY a hardened, bitter criminal with hacking skills and needs no assistance on that score.
  - olliej 2y ago
    Under Finnish law he isn’t - his prior crimes were a long time ago (caught anyway), and largely afaict while he was a kid. Most countries don’t treat children as adults, and in many - as here - crimes committed as a child get cleared. I get that if you’re used to the US criminal justice system you believe the goal is to punish people as long as possible - with a side order of slave labor and electoral disenfranchisement - but all of the statistics show that that policy has worse outcomes across the board. It has higher costs, higher rates of recidivism, and lower trust in the judicial system - which encourages an us vs them mentality that further increases crime rates. Not to mention that if a child spends a decade in prison they’re coming out the other end with little to know ability to earn a non-crime living afterwards.
    - flawsofar 2y ago
      I don't dispute your points but to have an honest comparison you do need to consider the amount of harm negated during the time of incarceration. Some people get stuck in shitty life situations and resort to crime. Some people are legitimately bad and enjoy harming people.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  Rehabilitation is all the rage around these parts, but there are other reasons for prisons. One of the purposes of prison is to protect the public from dangerous people. Another aspect is the instructive element; you send a message to the rest of society about what kind of behavior will or won't be tolerated. This man should be executed. It would be a fitting punishment for both of those reasons and more. He caused at least one suicide and victimized tens of thousands. This is a crime that calls for the death penalty.
pc86 2y ago
I don't know the Finnish equivalent of this but this is in the neighborhood of negligent homicide in the US. An enterprising prosecutor could probably make a decent case for 2nd degree murder. This is very clearly in "spend somewhere between 1 and 2 decades turning big rocks into little rocks" territory to my punishment-focused American lizard brain.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- HPsquared 2y ago
  Could come under Felony Murder. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule
  - pc86 2y ago
    This definitely sounds more like it and I am happy to be this week's example of why non-lawyers shouldn't speculate about what a particular crime is or is not :)
pyryt 2y ago
For comparison, manslaughter average sentence in Finland seems to be around 9.5 yrs

n4r9 2y ago

What he did is reprehensible. But comments like this are emotively loaded and provoke the ongoing debate around the purpose of jail term. In my opinion, even this length of sentence has a high chance of producing a hardened, bitter criminal with hacking skills.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> even this length of sentence has a high chance of producing a hardened, bitter criminal with hacking skills Given the guy’s arrest record (and implied lack of rehabilitation), a longer sentence would serve the goal of incapacitation.
- n4r9 2y ago
  It would temporarily serve that goal, but also expose him to a large network of criminals and give him a reason to hate society even more.
  - VS1999 2y ago
    What would this large network of criminals do? Perhaps they should be in isolation if they're that negative an influence.
    - jjmarr 2y ago
      Other criminals can teach him how to not get caught or recruit him into larger organizations. Prison is like a startup incubator for gangs. When you put a bunch of people with similar interests in one place it's a great networking opportunity.
  - renewiltord 2y ago
    Oderint dum impotentes
    - n4r9 2y ago
      et postea?
UberFly 2y ago
Removing people from society is what we do when they do these kind of terrible things to others. 6 years of removal isn't enough. The debate you refer to is a separate thing.
- n4r9 2y ago
  > is what we do This sounds a little like an appeal to tradition, unless I'm misunderstanding you. Removal from society is absolutely one of the intended purposes of prison, but as with all traditions it must be open to challenge and debate.
XCabbage 2y ago
> even this length of sentence has a high chance of producing a hardened, bitter criminal with hacking skills. You present this as an argument for a shorter sentence. But from another perspective, it's an argument for never letting him out. Prison isn't primarily meant to rehabilitate; you are almost certainly right that it will do the exact opposite in this case. Its power to deter is also limited. But what it can do, if we are simply willing to use it for that purpose, is contain dangerous people and prevent them from harming others again by simply not giving them the opportunity to do so.
- n4r9 2y ago
  > it's an argument for never letting him out It is an argument, although that might count as unusually cruel or disproportionate for a crime like this. Even murderers in Finland are typically pardoned and released after 12-15 years.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Even murderers in Finland are typically pardoned and released after 12-15 years What about serial murderers? The damning part—to me—isn’t the crime per se but the repeat offenses. The Finnish system is famously good at rehabilitating criminals. But what do you do with the edge cases? (I guess our system, which excels at incapacitation and retribution, has its edge cases in the unjustly imprisoned. Put that way, having the edge default to letting out a few incurable criminals from time to time might be the fairer solution.)
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      This is generally well handled. https://apnews.com/article/science-norway-europe-oslo-crime-bdd56073c42dc2066640095d7e62b048 https://apnews.com/article/science-norway-europe-oslo-crime-... > While the maximum prison sentence in Norway is 21 years, the law was amended in 2002 so that, in rare cases, sentences can be extended indefinitely in five-year increments if someone is still considered a danger to the public.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
skilled 2y ago
Finnish Criminal Policy: From Hard Time to Gentle Justice (https://epublications.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1057&context=socs_fac#:~:text=From%20a%20post%20war%20crime,low%20compared%20to%20international%20standards https://epublications.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti....) > From a post war crime boom and relatively high incarceration rates, Finnish prisons have emerged to be counted among the most humane correctional facilities in the world and yet, recidivism is very low compared to international standards. Sounds similar to that of Norway which is known for its kind/compassionate treatment of prisoners.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  "Lax" is probably not the term here, given the low recidivism.
  - skilled 2y ago
    Thanks, changed it.
  - thfuran 2y ago
    Perhaps "effective".
zaphod12 2y ago
Not looking to argue directly about the punishment, but I think it's quite clear that this individuals is ALREADY a hardened, bitter criminal with hacking skills and needs no assistance on that score.
- olliej 2y ago
  Under Finnish law he isn’t - his prior crimes were a long time ago (caught anyway), and largely afaict while he was a kid. Most countries don’t treat children as adults, and in many - as here - crimes committed as a child get cleared. I get that if you’re used to the US criminal justice system you believe the goal is to punish people as long as possible - with a side order of slave labor and electoral disenfranchisement - but all of the statistics show that that policy has worse outcomes across the board. It has higher costs, higher rates of recidivism, and lower trust in the judicial system - which encourages an us vs them mentality that further increases crime rates. Not to mention that if a child spends a decade in prison they’re coming out the other end with little to know ability to earn a non-crime living afterwards.
  - flawsofar 2y ago
    I don't dispute your points but to have an honest comparison you do need to consider the amount of harm negated during the time of incarceration. Some people get stuck in shitty life situations and resort to crime. Some people are legitimately bad and enjoy harming people.
lupusreal 2y ago
Rehabilitation is all the rage around these parts, but there are other reasons for prisons. One of the purposes of prison is to protect the public from dangerous people. Another aspect is the instructive element; you send a message to the rest of society about what kind of behavior will or won't be tolerated. This man should be executed. It would be a fitting punishment for both of those reasons and more. He caused at least one suicide and victimized tens of thousands. This is a crime that calls for the death penalty.

pc86 2y ago

I don't know the Finnish equivalent of this but this is in the neighborhood of negligent homicide in the US. An enterprising prosecutor could probably make a decent case for 2nd degree murder. This is very clearly in "spend somewhere between 1 and 2 decades turning big rocks into little rocks" territory to my punishment-focused American lizard brain.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
HPsquared 2y ago
Could come under Felony Murder. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule
- pc86 2y ago
  This definitely sounds more like it and I am happy to be this week's example of why non-lawyers shouldn't speculate about what a particular crime is or is not :)

pyryt 2y ago

For comparison, manslaughter average sentence in Finland seems to be around 9.5 yrs