107 ms·

Maybe the ecosystem just isn't big enough yet. Too much of the market is still not yet using Apple's products. Maybe when Apple reaches Microsoft-level penetr

Maybe the ecosystem just isn't big enough yet. Too much of the market is still not yet using Apple's products. Maybe when Apple reaches Microsoft-level penetration, and of course that is their goal (Exhbit A: Apple pricing trends), you might get your druthers. It really should not be necessary to "jailbreak" a device in the first instance. The user should be able to easily install their own choice of software on the hardware they have paid for: e.g., applications, OS, bootloader and BIOS. If you want to install Apple's software, you can. If you do not want to install their software, you can install something else. Simple.

jodrellblank 14y ago
The user should be able to easily install their own choice of software on the hardware they have paid for: e.g., applications, OS, bootloader and BIOS. Why should they? You don't get to easily put any ingredient of your choice in packaged food, or any instrument of your choice in finished songs, or any cloth of your choice in premade clothing, or any engine you like in a car.
- a3d6g2f7 14y ago
  What is the product? Is it the hardware? Or the software? Are you saying they are one product, not two? We've been through this countless times. Microsoft and the OEM's. Apple and their locked down hardware. Consumers are not fools. They know the difference between a software company and a hardware company. Does your packaged food come with silverware? Do your finished songs come with an mp3 player? Does your premade clothing come with laundry detergent? I find these type of comparsions (e.g. of computers and software to food, music, clothing) very strange. We are talking about cheap, programmable consumer electronics. And then we are having an argument over whether the consumer should have the ability to program them. It is absurd.
  - dpark 14y ago
    Should Honda be obliged to support installing custom engine control software? Overwriting the radio firmware? Reprogramming the odometer? Should GE obligated to support installing new firmware on your dishwasher? There's a long history of integrated devices. It may be the case that consumers know the difference between hardware and software. It's also the case, though, that they often do not care, and don't want to see with the difference.
    - a3d6g2f7 14y ago
      Thanks for your comment. First, I don't understand how "support" is relevant. I never mentioned it. What I'm suggesting involves no pledge from Apple to help me with any of my own software I install (BIOS, bootloader, OS, applications). And as far as I know, there is no "support" for Apple pre-installed software anyway. You cannot call customer service and get help with software installed on Apple hardware. And as is true with 99.99% of software, it comes with no warranty. So you really get nothing from Apple in the way of "support". As such, I would ask nothing more from Apple over what they don't provide anyway. Rather I'm asking for the the choice to buy the hardware without all the pre-installed software. Simple. Second, I do not understand your comparisons. Automobiles and dishwashers? Do consumers usually program those? Is there a github for that sort of thing? I'm talking about a personal computer. The kind consumers have been programming for over 30 years. iOS is built in significant part from open source code from CMU and Berkeley/FreeBSD/NetBSD that can be freely downloaded from the internet. That same code, and much more from numerous thriving open source respositories, is available to consumers, too. It is available to anyone, for any purpose. So why is Apple making it impossible for anyone to use their own software (or their own speakers) together with Apple's hardware? Is there a legitimate reason? No one is asking for "support". Instead they are asking for Apple to stop getting in their way and interfering with how they can use a product that belongs to them. When you buy a Honda automobile, Honda doesn't care what you do with it afterwards. They do not act to control which car stereo speakers you can and cannot install. You bought the car. What you do with it now is your business.
  - jodrellblank 14y ago
    What is the product? Is it the hardware? Or the software? Are you saying they are one product, not two? Yes I'm saying they are one product not two. They are made as one product, advertised as one product, sold as one thing for one price, supported as one product. Where do you get the idea that they could reasonably be thought of as two products? We are talking about cheap, programmable consumer electronics. And then we are having an argument over whether the consumer should have the ability to program them. It is absurd. No we aren't. We are talking about dozens of components, both software and hardware, put together into one product which is not sold as "programmable electronics" anymore than a dishwasher is sold as "reconfigurable matter". It's a nonsense idea that you want to be the case but you haven't justified why it "should" be the case at all.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - a3d6g2f7 14y ago
      "reconfigurable matter"?
- mikeash 14y ago
  Your analogies are highly broken. You can mix packaged food with whatever you want. You can choose to eat only the left half of your TV dinner. In short, once it's yours, you can do what you like. You can take a song and remix it to your heart's content. That is, unless the song contains DRM which prevents you from extracting the raw audio data. This is something most people around here frown upon rather strongly. Nothing prevents me from taking pre-made clothing and using it in ways the manufacturer didn't envision and doesn't desire. I can use store-bought pants to make rope or filter water or anything I wish. As for putting any engine you like in a car, I don't know where that came from. Of course you can put any engine you like in a car, as long as you have the resources and the skills. Nobody is saying Apple must explicitly support third-party stuff like this. They shouldn't go out of their way for it. All we want is for them to stop going out of their way to prevent it. It's not just a matter of Apple not inviting third-party OSes and bootloaders. The problem is that Apple locks down the platform using digital signatures so that the only way to use anything but an Apple OS or bootloader is to find and exploit a bug in Apple's lockdown code. There is no similar situation in the world of packaged food, music (except for DRM, which is generally considered bad), clothing, or cars.
  - jodrellblank 14y ago
    Your analogies are highly broken. That's because computing is a new thing in human history. There isn't anything quite like it. But there is matter, and matter is sold with lots of disparate bits built into one product all the time. Things which could be reconfigured by a skilled person, but it's widely accepted that people don't/can't/shouldn't do that. Your arguments are similarly broken. You can mix your iOS device with any pair of glasses, 3.5mm audio device, wifi AP, or cover, or choose to use only part of it. You can't have a TV dinner without the gravy browning and you can't get an iOS device without the Apple firmware. The problem is that Apple locks down the platform using digital signatures so that the only way to use anything but an Apple OS or bootloader is to find and exploit a bug in Apple's lockdown code. And one of the reasons they do that is so they can provide a curated, malware free, beginner-unbreakable, trustable-updating, partly-sandboxed-app experience for their paying customers. You have complained about my analogies, but you haven't said why "they should" do that, just that "you want them to".
- beedogs 14y ago
  This may be the worst argument I've seen on HN in weeks.
  - jodrellblank 14y ago
    Someone asking a question is the worst argument you've seen in weeks? Leave the hyperbole at the door, would you?
jonhendry 14y ago
"(Exhbit A: Apple pricing trends)" Apple's prices have been pretty steady, and are frequently decried as being too high.
- a3d6g2f7 14y ago
  There was a time before iPods, iPhones and iPads. Way back then, Apple hardware was considered expensive by comparison to the alternatives. Apple is now producing products that many more people can afford. This is what I meant when I say Apple's prices are decreasing. The cost to the consumer to own an Apple "computer"[1] has come down. 1. I consider all three: iPod, iPhone and iPad to be "computers". Deliberately crippled, to limit functionality, perhaps. But still posessing the basic elements of a computer.

jodrellblank 14y ago

The user should be able to easily install their own choice of software on the hardware they have paid for: e.g., applications, OS, bootloader and BIOS. Why should they? You don't get to easily put any ingredient of your choice in packaged food, or any instrument of your choice in finished songs, or any cloth of your choice in premade clothing, or any engine you like in a car.

a3d6g2f7 14y ago
What is the product? Is it the hardware? Or the software? Are you saying they are one product, not two? We've been through this countless times. Microsoft and the OEM's. Apple and their locked down hardware. Consumers are not fools. They know the difference between a software company and a hardware company. Does your packaged food come with silverware? Do your finished songs come with an mp3 player? Does your premade clothing come with laundry detergent? I find these type of comparsions (e.g. of computers and software to food, music, clothing) very strange. We are talking about cheap, programmable consumer electronics. And then we are having an argument over whether the consumer should have the ability to program them. It is absurd.
- dpark 14y ago
  Should Honda be obliged to support installing custom engine control software? Overwriting the radio firmware? Reprogramming the odometer? Should GE obligated to support installing new firmware on your dishwasher? There's a long history of integrated devices. It may be the case that consumers know the difference between hardware and software. It's also the case, though, that they often do not care, and don't want to see with the difference.
  - a3d6g2f7 14y ago
    Thanks for your comment. First, I don't understand how "support" is relevant. I never mentioned it. What I'm suggesting involves no pledge from Apple to help me with any of my own software I install (BIOS, bootloader, OS, applications). And as far as I know, there is no "support" for Apple pre-installed software anyway. You cannot call customer service and get help with software installed on Apple hardware. And as is true with 99.99% of software, it comes with no warranty. So you really get nothing from Apple in the way of "support". As such, I would ask nothing more from Apple over what they don't provide anyway. Rather I'm asking for the the choice to buy the hardware without all the pre-installed software. Simple. Second, I do not understand your comparisons. Automobiles and dishwashers? Do consumers usually program those? Is there a github for that sort of thing? I'm talking about a personal computer. The kind consumers have been programming for over 30 years. iOS is built in significant part from open source code from CMU and Berkeley/FreeBSD/NetBSD that can be freely downloaded from the internet. That same code, and much more from numerous thriving open source respositories, is available to consumers, too. It is available to anyone, for any purpose. So why is Apple making it impossible for anyone to use their own software (or their own speakers) together with Apple's hardware? Is there a legitimate reason? No one is asking for "support". Instead they are asking for Apple to stop getting in their way and interfering with how they can use a product that belongs to them. When you buy a Honda automobile, Honda doesn't care what you do with it afterwards. They do not act to control which car stereo speakers you can and cannot install. You bought the car. What you do with it now is your business.
- jodrellblank 14y ago
  What is the product? Is it the hardware? Or the software? Are you saying they are one product, not two? Yes I'm saying they are one product not two. They are made as one product, advertised as one product, sold as one thing for one price, supported as one product. Where do you get the idea that they could reasonably be thought of as two products? We are talking about cheap, programmable consumer electronics. And then we are having an argument over whether the consumer should have the ability to program them. It is absurd. No we aren't. We are talking about dozens of components, both software and hardware, put together into one product which is not sold as "programmable electronics" anymore than a dishwasher is sold as "reconfigurable matter". It's a nonsense idea that you want to be the case but you haven't justified why it "should" be the case at all.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - a3d6g2f7 14y ago
    "reconfigurable matter"?
mikeash 14y ago
Your analogies are highly broken. You can mix packaged food with whatever you want. You can choose to eat only the left half of your TV dinner. In short, once it's yours, you can do what you like. You can take a song and remix it to your heart's content. That is, unless the song contains DRM which prevents you from extracting the raw audio data. This is something most people around here frown upon rather strongly. Nothing prevents me from taking pre-made clothing and using it in ways the manufacturer didn't envision and doesn't desire. I can use store-bought pants to make rope or filter water or anything I wish. As for putting any engine you like in a car, I don't know where that came from. Of course you can put any engine you like in a car, as long as you have the resources and the skills. Nobody is saying Apple must explicitly support third-party stuff like this. They shouldn't go out of their way for it. All we want is for them to stop going out of their way to prevent it. It's not just a matter of Apple not inviting third-party OSes and bootloaders. The problem is that Apple locks down the platform using digital signatures so that the only way to use anything but an Apple OS or bootloader is to find and exploit a bug in Apple's lockdown code. There is no similar situation in the world of packaged food, music (except for DRM, which is generally considered bad), clothing, or cars.
- jodrellblank 14y ago
  Your analogies are highly broken. That's because computing is a new thing in human history. There isn't anything quite like it. But there is matter, and matter is sold with lots of disparate bits built into one product all the time. Things which could be reconfigured by a skilled person, but it's widely accepted that people don't/can't/shouldn't do that. Your arguments are similarly broken. You can mix your iOS device with any pair of glasses, 3.5mm audio device, wifi AP, or cover, or choose to use only part of it. You can't have a TV dinner without the gravy browning and you can't get an iOS device without the Apple firmware. The problem is that Apple locks down the platform using digital signatures so that the only way to use anything but an Apple OS or bootloader is to find and exploit a bug in Apple's lockdown code. And one of the reasons they do that is so they can provide a curated, malware free, beginner-unbreakable, trustable-updating, partly-sandboxed-app experience for their paying customers. You have complained about my analogies, but you haven't said why "they should" do that, just that "you want them to".
beedogs 14y ago
This may be the worst argument I've seen on HN in weeks.
- jodrellblank 14y ago
  Someone asking a question is the worst argument you've seen in weeks? Leave the hyperbole at the door, would you?

jonhendry 14y ago

"(Exhbit A: Apple pricing trends)" Apple's prices have been pretty steady, and are frequently decried as being too high.

a3d6g2f7 14y ago
There was a time before iPods, iPhones and iPads. Way back then, Apple hardware was considered expensive by comparison to the alternatives. Apple is now producing products that many more people can afford. This is what I meant when I say Apple's prices are decreasing. The cost to the consumer to own an Apple "computer"[1] has come down. 1. I consider all three: iPod, iPhone and iPad to be "computers". Deliberately crippled, to limit functionality, perhaps. But still posessing the basic elements of a computer.