6 ms·

Aux.computer: An Alternative to the Nix Ecosystem

34 points by mmarx 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
krylon 2y ago
I know of Nix, but I know little about the project itself. Can someone shed some light on the reasons for forking?
- jonringer117 2y ago
  There's a lot of issues right now around communication, moderation, and community. - One of the release managers (myself) was banned/suspended [1] - Attempts to assert control on the board's decision-making by proxy group [2] - Use of social media to target individuals [3] 1: https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cd5fod/in_case_im_unable_to_return_wish_you_all_the_best/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cd5fod/in_case_im_u... 2: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/objection-to-minority-representation-by-a-single-class-in-nixos-sponsorship-policy/42968/19 https://discourse.nixos.org/t/objection-to-minority-represen... 3: https://github.com/NixOS/foundation/pull/133 https://github.com/NixOS/foundation/pull/133
  - jubalfh 2y ago
    dear goddess, anduril really employs gobshites from the top to the bottom.
  - Foxboron 2y ago
    Bro, you should really take the hint soon.
    - jonringer117 2y ago
      That there's an established clique? I agree.
  - paulgdp 2y ago
    As much as I think they overreacted when banning you, it also feels like an overreaction to fork that soon. I hope a compromise will be found, and that you'll be back on NixOS as soon as possible!
  - KingMob 2y ago
    Wow, is #3 disingenuous. "Use of social media to target individuals" sounds like some internet personality doxxed you, or sicced their followers on you. But it looks like... someone linked your own public comments from a Nix Discourse thread, and then the board rejected your bid to join them? Apparently this Jon Ringer guy has it out for you, as much as anyone else. He keeps sabotaging you and putting words in your mouth. /s Reading your comments, I'm continually reminded of MLK's Letter from Birmingham Jail, "Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will." It's clear you still haven't educated yourself on the issues around representation, and the distortions of "meritocracy" in a world where we didn't all get to race from the same starting line.
- mmarx 2y ago
  https://github.com/KFearsoff/nix-drama-explained https://github.com/KFearsoff/nix-drama-explained has a good summary of what the contention is about.
nikolay 2y ago
Why now call it Snowflakes given: Kindness The project should be welcoming and a safe place for people to participate. I'm puzzled how overly sensitive the new generation of humans is! This the the opposite of stoicism and resilience!
- jubalfh 2y ago
  how old are you, nikita, 12?
- viraptor 2y ago
  Seeing an issue, working to resolve it, then making the environment better for others takes resilience. Stoicism and resilience does not mean rolling over and accepting bad things because problems in your life are not solvable.
  - nikolay 2y ago
    There's a vast difference between "working to solve it" and "forking it"! The younger generations do not get the concept of "respect"! They need to respect those who've done the most work and not feel entitled that a small contribution to something makes them equal rights owners!
    - viraptor 2y ago
      This is not some sudden issue people are overreacting to by forking. The discussions have been going on for months/years depending on which specific issue you're taking about. What you see now is the culmination of "we've tried to fix this, but the only remaining option we see is to fork". The "younger generations do not get ..." is a silly trope. https://historyhustle.com/2500-years-of-people-complaining-about-the-younger-generation/ https://historyhustle.com/2500-years-of-people-complaining-a... If you're actually interested in the non-forking ways to fix it, what are your views on the relevant RFCs proposed and the outcome of those? What's the process you're thinking of that people have missed so far?
      - 2y ago
funcDropShadow 2y ago
Who is behind this fork?
- hiimshort 2y ago
  Hi, I (Jake Hamilton) am. Though, this is not an effort that can be undertaken by one person. My goal is publishing this page was to create a set of values, goals, and a roadmap for people (like myself) who would otherwise be leaving the Nix ecosystem due to its shortcomings. These values, goals, and roadmap can then be used for alignment to actually make it a reality. I worried that if these things weren't specified up front that people would instead continue arguing in circles about past problems rather than building a solution.
  - hiimshort 2y ago
    For reference, I use Nix a lot. I was pushing it pretty hard at Intuit while I worked there. All my systems are managed with it: https://github.com/jakehamilton/config https://github.com/jakehamilton/config And I have created projects like Snowfall Lib to make working with certain features easier: https://github.com/snowfallorg/lib https://github.com/snowfallorg/lib
  - nialv7 2y ago
    What communication channels do you plan to use for coordination? Forum, discord, IRC, matrix or something else?
    - hiimshort 2y ago
      A forum is currently being set up so people can start collaborating, but I intend to also create a Matrix space as well for real-time communications.
  - paulgdp 2y ago
    The name, the logo, the values and many important strategic decisions seems to have already been decided, before a public channel of communication has been created. Was this created by just you, or is there already a team?
YuukiRey 2y ago
I believe that it's currently best to wait until everyone has had a chance to cool down a bit and then see what state the original Nix project is in. There has certainly been a lot of drama and I don't think it's just a vocal minority that's making the news here, but I also believe that long running open source projects like Nix are pretty resilient. Some folks will leave, some will come back, constructive changes can be made and hopefully we'll all be able to reconcile as much of our differences as is necessary to resume work and collaboration.
RGBCube 2y ago
This will never take off as it is exclusionary on purpose.
- KingMob 2y ago
  taps sign: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
mtndew4brkfst 2y ago
The thing that could immediately doom any Nix fork was how many people saw a general movement towards that, and then decided this was their moment to champion whatever pet axe-to-grind they have with the original projects, no matter whether it was technical, social, ideological. They often share these concerns as a criteria they would need in order to adopt or contribute to a fork. Many such wishes I've seen proposed are big departures and would alienate different sets of people, or pose notable practical/logistical challenges to fulfill. Resources and time are already going to be stretched super thin as it is. The early days of a community fork, and establishing a sense of fresh unity, are absolutely critical. Anything that divides folks further by way of fractal levels of tribalism merely drains its lifeblood while it's still finding its feet and its identity.

34 points by mmarx 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

krylon 2y ago

I know of Nix, but I know little about the project itself. Can someone shed some light on the reasons for forking?

jonringer117 2y ago
There's a lot of issues right now around communication, moderation, and community. - One of the release managers (myself) was banned/suspended [1] - Attempts to assert control on the board's decision-making by proxy group [2] - Use of social media to target individuals [3] 1: https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cd5fod/in_case_im_unable_to_return_wish_you_all_the_best/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cd5fod/in_case_im_u... 2: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/objection-to-minority-representation-by-a-single-class-in-nixos-sponsorship-policy/42968/19 https://discourse.nixos.org/t/objection-to-minority-represen... 3: https://github.com/NixOS/foundation/pull/133 https://github.com/NixOS/foundation/pull/133
- jubalfh 2y ago
  dear goddess, anduril really employs gobshites from the top to the bottom.
- Foxboron 2y ago
  Bro, you should really take the hint soon.
  - jonringer117 2y ago
    That there's an established clique? I agree.
- paulgdp 2y ago
  As much as I think they overreacted when banning you, it also feels like an overreaction to fork that soon. I hope a compromise will be found, and that you'll be back on NixOS as soon as possible!
- KingMob 2y ago
  Wow, is #3 disingenuous. "Use of social media to target individuals" sounds like some internet personality doxxed you, or sicced their followers on you. But it looks like... someone linked your own public comments from a Nix Discourse thread, and then the board rejected your bid to join them? Apparently this Jon Ringer guy has it out for you, as much as anyone else. He keeps sabotaging you and putting words in your mouth. /s Reading your comments, I'm continually reminded of MLK's Letter from Birmingham Jail, "Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will." It's clear you still haven't educated yourself on the issues around representation, and the distortions of "meritocracy" in a world where we didn't all get to race from the same starting line.
mmarx 2y ago
https://github.com/KFearsoff/nix-drama-explained https://github.com/KFearsoff/nix-drama-explained has a good summary of what the contention is about.

nikolay 2y ago

Why now call it Snowflakes given: Kindness The project should be welcoming and a safe place for people to participate. I'm puzzled how overly sensitive the new generation of humans is! This the the opposite of stoicism and resilience!

jubalfh 2y ago
how old are you, nikita, 12?
viraptor 2y ago
Seeing an issue, working to resolve it, then making the environment better for others takes resilience. Stoicism and resilience does not mean rolling over and accepting bad things because problems in your life are not solvable.
- nikolay 2y ago
  There's a vast difference between "working to solve it" and "forking it"! The younger generations do not get the concept of "respect"! They need to respect those who've done the most work and not feel entitled that a small contribution to something makes them equal rights owners!
  - viraptor 2y ago
    This is not some sudden issue people are overreacting to by forking. The discussions have been going on for months/years depending on which specific issue you're taking about. What you see now is the culmination of "we've tried to fix this, but the only remaining option we see is to fork". The "younger generations do not get ..." is a silly trope. https://historyhustle.com/2500-years-of-people-complaining-about-the-younger-generation/ https://historyhustle.com/2500-years-of-people-complaining-a... If you're actually interested in the non-forking ways to fix it, what are your views on the relevant RFCs proposed and the outcome of those? What's the process you're thinking of that people have missed so far?
    - 2y ago

funcDropShadow 2y ago

Who is behind this fork?

hiimshort 2y ago
Hi, I (Jake Hamilton) am. Though, this is not an effort that can be undertaken by one person. My goal is publishing this page was to create a set of values, goals, and a roadmap for people (like myself) who would otherwise be leaving the Nix ecosystem due to its shortcomings. These values, goals, and roadmap can then be used for alignment to actually make it a reality. I worried that if these things weren't specified up front that people would instead continue arguing in circles about past problems rather than building a solution.
- hiimshort 2y ago
  For reference, I use Nix a lot. I was pushing it pretty hard at Intuit while I worked there. All my systems are managed with it: https://github.com/jakehamilton/config https://github.com/jakehamilton/config And I have created projects like Snowfall Lib to make working with certain features easier: https://github.com/snowfallorg/lib https://github.com/snowfallorg/lib
- nialv7 2y ago
  What communication channels do you plan to use for coordination? Forum, discord, IRC, matrix or something else?
  - hiimshort 2y ago
    A forum is currently being set up so people can start collaborating, but I intend to also create a Matrix space as well for real-time communications.
- paulgdp 2y ago
  The name, the logo, the values and many important strategic decisions seems to have already been decided, before a public channel of communication has been created. Was this created by just you, or is there already a team?

YuukiRey 2y ago

I believe that it's currently best to wait until everyone has had a chance to cool down a bit and then see what state the original Nix project is in. There has certainly been a lot of drama and I don't think it's just a vocal minority that's making the news here, but I also believe that long running open source projects like Nix are pretty resilient. Some folks will leave, some will come back, constructive changes can be made and hopefully we'll all be able to reconcile as much of our differences as is necessary to resume work and collaboration.

RGBCube 2y ago

This will never take off as it is exclusionary on purpose.

KingMob 2y ago
taps sign: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

mtndew4brkfst 2y ago

The thing that could immediately doom any Nix fork was how many people saw a general movement towards that, and then decided this was their moment to champion whatever pet axe-to-grind they have with the original projects, no matter whether it was technical, social, ideological. They often share these concerns as a criteria they would need in order to adopt or contribute to a fork. Many such wishes I've seen proposed are big departures and would alienate different sets of people, or pose notable practical/logistical challenges to fulfill. Resources and time are already going to be stretched super thin as it is. The early days of a community fork, and establishing a sense of fresh unity, are absolutely critical. Anything that divides folks further by way of fractal levels of tribalism merely drains its lifeblood while it's still finding its feet and its identity.