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>... the political divide has fallen such that LGBTQ+ people are almost forced to ally with Palestine. Short answer: they are often one and the same people - l

by vlozko 2y ago

>... the political divide has fallen such that LGBTQ+ people are almost forced to ally with Palestine. Short answer: they are often one and the same people - leftist activists who have opinions on more than one subject.

dijit 2y ago
I'm sorry but I don't understand and I think I need a longer answer. I could interpret this three ways: 1) "Leftist Activists"; are a mixed group with some supporting pro-LGBTQ rights and others supporting Palestine. 2) "Leftist Activists"; are a homogenous group, including LGBTQ people, of which they support Palestine (and thus, support a regime that would wish them harm) 3) "Leftist Activists"; are a homogenous group, including LGBTQ people, who will always attempt to ally to the downtrodden, even in cases where the downtrodden would wish them to not exist. Are any of these correct or is there another interpretation I missed?
- spencerflem 2y ago
  I think you are mistaken that you cannot logically support both LGBT rights and Palestine. For example, I support LBGTQ+ rights and would not want people who opposed them in America to be treated the way Palestinians are.
  - ParetoOptimal 2y ago
    > you cannot logically support both LGBT rights and Palestine. You can support LGBTQ rights AND support Palestinian children not being killed by Israel.
    - spencerflem 2y ago
      yeah I agree, I think you misread the comment
  - dijit 2y ago
    OK, I see. I suppose my next question would be why we are somehow stoic on the Uyghur issue. But I would guess that the reason is that the US sends support to Israel while actively cutting ties (or going to war economically) with China.
    - spencerflem 2y ago
      Exactly, yeah. What's happening there is awful and very sad, but there's almost nothing I can do about it, whereas our government provides billions in weapons to Israel
      - candiodari 2y ago
        ... and trillions in trade to China. US could cut trade ties with China. This seems to apply to many conflicts, e.g. Sudan. The US could intervene. Now you might say "US tried something similar and that was not exactly a good experience", but the US certainly can intervene. Or, in Lebanon the US, and all countries in the UN security council promised to intervene (and disarm Hezbollah), but just don't do it.
        spencerflem 2y ago
        Not intervening is different than actively supporting. We have given ~ a hundred billion and are about to give tens of billions more in no strings attached military aid. We used our UN Veto dozens of times to prevent calling for a ceasefire Should we intervene for the Uyghurs? Maybe! But this one seems way more obvious
        candiodari 2y ago
        If that were truly the reason there are protests there wouldn't be any support in Europe, when in reality the movements there are far bigger than in the US. I mean, sorry, but the black flags and open hostility towards Jews shows what at least a large percentage of the movement is really about. Especially in Europe. The rest of the movement is the same as leftist movements, imho. It's also not about supporting Palestinians it's about fighting the power, ie. attempting to have political impact by "campaigning" for something SO immoral, unacceptable and unrealistic that there is bound to be a fight. It's about the fight, NOT about a solution. And by campaigning I don't mean campaigning in the sense of political campaigning, or even the vitriol spouting semi-threatening Trump is doing, but being so in the way, sabotaging people's lives, that normal people pretty much have to react with violence (because that's the point of blocking, for example, the Golden Gate bridge: to threaten people's livelihoods, and get a strong reaction that way). It's not about saving tax dollars ... Yes, there's 1% fringe rightists in there. But seriously? It's not about that.
- vlozko 2y ago
  It's mostly 2. The harder point to prove, though I think it's true, that much of the pro-Palestinian rhetoric is as much anti-Israel, i.e anti-Semetic. It's hard to discuss subjects like this without nuance so most of my observations/opinions tend to be around trends. But a good comparison could be Ukraine and Russia. Much of the US widely supports Ukraine's plight and fully believe that Russia is a belligerent, colonialist nation fully at fault for the war. Nothing gray about it compared to the Israel/Palestine conflict. And yet you don't widespread hate and mistreatment of ethnic Russians in the US. You can't say the same about the treatment Jews, even those born and raised in the US.
  - ParetoOptimal 2y ago
    > The harder point to prove, though I think it's true, that much of the pro-Palestinian rhetoric is as much anti-Israel, i.e anti-Semetic. What? My view is totally different. Most of the pro-Palestinian people intersect with the same anti-fascists under fire from newly pro-Israel people that previously criticized anti-fascists for punching Nazis. When alt-right people defaced Jewish synagogues before this conflict I find the people arguing for it to be publicly acknowledged as a hate crime are the exact same people that are pro-Palestine now.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      > that previously criticized anti-fascists for punching Nazis For punching people they called Nazis.
      - DangitBobby 2y ago
        Accurate or not, the perception of someone being a Nazi made them punchable. It's not hard to argue people desiring to punch Nazis are probably not anti-Semetic.
        edanm 2y ago
        Of course it's hard to argue that. Nazis are the great bogeymen right now, wanting to punch them might have little to do with feelings about Jews, and everything to do with just looking for an outlet to attack "the bad people" however defined. When we read historical cases of witch trials or executing "demons" or "possessed people", it's the same thing.

by vlozko 2y ago

dijit 2y ago

I'm sorry but I don't understand and I think I need a longer answer. I could interpret this three ways: 1) "Leftist Activists"; are a mixed group with some supporting pro-LGBTQ rights and others supporting Palestine. 2) "Leftist Activists"; are a homogenous group, including LGBTQ people, of which they support Palestine (and thus, support a regime that would wish them harm) 3) "Leftist Activists"; are a homogenous group, including LGBTQ people, who will always attempt to ally to the downtrodden, even in cases where the downtrodden would wish them to not exist. Are any of these correct or is there another interpretation I missed?

spencerflem 2y ago
I think you are mistaken that you cannot logically support both LGBT rights and Palestine. For example, I support LBGTQ+ rights and would not want people who opposed them in America to be treated the way Palestinians are.
- ParetoOptimal 2y ago
  > you cannot logically support both LGBT rights and Palestine. You can support LGBTQ rights AND support Palestinian children not being killed by Israel.
  - spencerflem 2y ago
    yeah I agree, I think you misread the comment
- dijit 2y ago
  OK, I see. I suppose my next question would be why we are somehow stoic on the Uyghur issue. But I would guess that the reason is that the US sends support to Israel while actively cutting ties (or going to war economically) with China.
  - spencerflem 2y ago
    Exactly, yeah. What's happening there is awful and very sad, but there's almost nothing I can do about it, whereas our government provides billions in weapons to Israel
    - candiodari 2y ago
      ... and trillions in trade to China. US could cut trade ties with China. This seems to apply to many conflicts, e.g. Sudan. The US could intervene. Now you might say "US tried something similar and that was not exactly a good experience", but the US certainly can intervene. Or, in Lebanon the US, and all countries in the UN security council promised to intervene (and disarm Hezbollah), but just don't do it.
      - spencerflem 2y ago
        Not intervening is different than actively supporting. We have given ~ a hundred billion and are about to give tens of billions more in no strings attached military aid. We used our UN Veto dozens of times to prevent calling for a ceasefire Should we intervene for the Uyghurs? Maybe! But this one seems way more obvious
        candiodari 2y ago
        If that were truly the reason there are protests there wouldn't be any support in Europe, when in reality the movements there are far bigger than in the US. I mean, sorry, but the black flags and open hostility towards Jews shows what at least a large percentage of the movement is really about. Especially in Europe. The rest of the movement is the same as leftist movements, imho. It's also not about supporting Palestinians it's about fighting the power, ie. attempting to have political impact by "campaigning" for something SO immoral, unacceptable and unrealistic that there is bound to be a fight. It's about the fight, NOT about a solution. And by campaigning I don't mean campaigning in the sense of political campaigning, or even the vitriol spouting semi-threatening Trump is doing, but being so in the way, sabotaging people's lives, that normal people pretty much have to react with violence (because that's the point of blocking, for example, the Golden Gate bridge: to threaten people's livelihoods, and get a strong reaction that way). It's not about saving tax dollars ... Yes, there's 1% fringe rightists in there. But seriously? It's not about that.
vlozko 2y ago
It's mostly 2. The harder point to prove, though I think it's true, that much of the pro-Palestinian rhetoric is as much anti-Israel, i.e anti-Semetic. It's hard to discuss subjects like this without nuance so most of my observations/opinions tend to be around trends. But a good comparison could be Ukraine and Russia. Much of the US widely supports Ukraine's plight and fully believe that Russia is a belligerent, colonialist nation fully at fault for the war. Nothing gray about it compared to the Israel/Palestine conflict. And yet you don't widespread hate and mistreatment of ethnic Russians in the US. You can't say the same about the treatment Jews, even those born and raised in the US.
- ParetoOptimal 2y ago
  > The harder point to prove, though I think it's true, that much of the pro-Palestinian rhetoric is as much anti-Israel, i.e anti-Semetic. What? My view is totally different. Most of the pro-Palestinian people intersect with the same anti-fascists under fire from newly pro-Israel people that previously criticized anti-fascists for punching Nazis. When alt-right people defaced Jewish synagogues before this conflict I find the people arguing for it to be publicly acknowledged as a hate crime are the exact same people that are pro-Palestine now.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    > that previously criticized anti-fascists for punching Nazis For punching people they called Nazis.
    - DangitBobby 2y ago
      Accurate or not, the perception of someone being a Nazi made them punchable. It's not hard to argue people desiring to punch Nazis are probably not anti-Semetic.
      - edanm 2y ago
        Of course it's hard to argue that. Nazis are the great bogeymen right now, wanting to punch them might have little to do with feelings about Jews, and everything to do with just looking for an outlet to attack "the bad people" however defined. When we read historical cases of witch trials or executing "demons" or "possessed people", it's the same thing.