4 ms·

Regardless of anything else, it's wrong that servers are paid less per hour just because tips are common. This places an unfair burden on customers, and took ti

by aneth 14y ago

Regardless of anything else, it's wrong that servers are paid less per hour just because tips are common. This places an unfair burden on customers, and took tips from being part of a culture of discretionary generosity to being enshrined law. Since the tip is now required for the server to earn minimum wage, it is no longer a tip but a sort of marginally optional "fee." IMO, a 10% service charge without expectation of a tip makes much more sense and is much fairer. The entitlement culture in the service industry is so great that servers will angrily say things like "if you can't afford to tip on a bottle of wine, don't order it or stay home." Yikes. How about I just don't tip you.

joejohnson 14y ago
I agree. In fact, why not go a little further and make everything cost 10% more. Then, the customer knows up front exactly what the meal will cost. However the restaurant wants to split the revenue of the final check is up to the restaurant.
- gridaphobe 14y ago
  This a thousand times, and while we're at it please include tax in the advertised price. Growing up in Germany and the US, I find the US system incredibly deceptive and annoying..
- dfxm12 14y ago
  There are some laws about this in most states of the US. If a restaurant charges a "x% service fee", then you must pay that fee. Deal with it. If they claim "x% gratuity is included in the check", then you can ask not to pay it. I frequented a restaurant that did the latter. The problem was that they did a bad job of advertising the fact & would sometimes go as far as to not give an itemized check. I personally felt like I was being duped. This led to customers tipping on top on a tip & when customers found out, there was a lot of rage on Yelp et al. They repealed the auto gratuity. Point is, if you are going to do this be loud and clear about it.
tptacek 14y ago
Servers are entitled to tips, although ironically not necessarily on wine; while it's customary to simply roll wine into your tip, if you're buying expensive bottles it's acceptable to tip less for it. Tips are part of the way the market for restaurant service is organized. The expectation that you're going to participate in the full market by tipping is universal and an implied part of the US social contract. If this offends you, that's fine: just don't dine in places that expect you to tip. You'll be sending the message to the appropriate target, the business owners, and not to the servers who have no control over the way the market is arranged.
- Luc 14y ago
  > just don't dine in places that expect you to tip. You'll be sending the message to the appropriate target, the business owners How does that work? By telepathy? > and not to the servers who have no control over the way the market is arranged. It's _exactly_ the servers that need to unionise and get this archaic system outlawed.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    Unionization. That'll fix everything. Sounds great. My suggestion: next time you eat out at a nicer-than-average restaurant, ask the server what they think of your idea. I make a point of talking to servers, not because I'm particularly nice (I'm not) but because it's an easy way to get much better service in the future, access to tables on crowded nights, &c. I think you're going to find that restaurant servers do not see tipping as a cosmic injustice that they should pay union dues to stamp out.
    - Luc 14y ago
      You're against people organising themselves democratically for a common cause? > next time you eat out at a nicer-than-average restaurant, ask the server what they think of your idea Waiters in my country make a living wage, no matter what the weather is. And they get tips, too. Waiting in the US sounds like a great deal - go work for a start-up on commission, if the business thrives you'll still be an employee, if the business falters you'll miss your rent payment.
jack-r-abbit 14y ago
> IMO, a 10% service charge without expectation of a tip makes much more sense and is much fairer. But isn't that basically just forcing a 10% tip on everyone with no regard for actual services rendered? While the tipping practice may be flawed, there is at least some built in incentive for the server to aim for more tips. With a mandatory 10% fee, the server has no incentive to go beyond their duty and the customer has no opt out.
- aneth 14y ago
  Not really. The 10% is required and disclosed, so it is no difference than raising the prices. Tips on the other hand are an imposition since they are both expected and discretionary. Sure, the 10% could be included in the price and wages raised, but it doesn't make much difference. It's the difference between a VAT tax and a sales tax - in the end the amount is the same - sales tax is just more apparent to the consumer.
  - jack-r-abbit 14y ago
    I don't understand your logic that "required & fixed" is better than "expected & discretionary" but if that is how you feel then I'm not going to argue with you. We'll just disagree.

by aneth 14y ago

joejohnson 14y ago

I agree. In fact, why not go a little further and make everything cost 10% more. Then, the customer knows up front exactly what the meal will cost. However the restaurant wants to split the revenue of the final check is up to the restaurant.

gridaphobe 14y ago
This a thousand times, and while we're at it please include tax in the advertised price. Growing up in Germany and the US, I find the US system incredibly deceptive and annoying..
dfxm12 14y ago
There are some laws about this in most states of the US. If a restaurant charges a "x% service fee", then you must pay that fee. Deal with it. If they claim "x% gratuity is included in the check", then you can ask not to pay it. I frequented a restaurant that did the latter. The problem was that they did a bad job of advertising the fact & would sometimes go as far as to not give an itemized check. I personally felt like I was being duped. This led to customers tipping on top on a tip & when customers found out, there was a lot of rage on Yelp et al. They repealed the auto gratuity. Point is, if you are going to do this be loud and clear about it.

tptacek 14y ago

Servers are entitled to tips, although ironically not necessarily on wine; while it's customary to simply roll wine into your tip, if you're buying expensive bottles it's acceptable to tip less for it. Tips are part of the way the market for restaurant service is organized. The expectation that you're going to participate in the full market by tipping is universal and an implied part of the US social contract. If this offends you, that's fine: just don't dine in places that expect you to tip. You'll be sending the message to the appropriate target, the business owners, and not to the servers who have no control over the way the market is arranged.

Luc 14y ago
> just don't dine in places that expect you to tip. You'll be sending the message to the appropriate target, the business owners How does that work? By telepathy? > and not to the servers who have no control over the way the market is arranged. It's _exactly_ the servers that need to unionise and get this archaic system outlawed.
- tptacek 14y ago
  Unionization. That'll fix everything. Sounds great. My suggestion: next time you eat out at a nicer-than-average restaurant, ask the server what they think of your idea. I make a point of talking to servers, not because I'm particularly nice (I'm not) but because it's an easy way to get much better service in the future, access to tables on crowded nights, &c. I think you're going to find that restaurant servers do not see tipping as a cosmic injustice that they should pay union dues to stamp out.
  - Luc 14y ago
    You're against people organising themselves democratically for a common cause? > next time you eat out at a nicer-than-average restaurant, ask the server what they think of your idea Waiters in my country make a living wage, no matter what the weather is. And they get tips, too. Waiting in the US sounds like a great deal - go work for a start-up on commission, if the business thrives you'll still be an employee, if the business falters you'll miss your rent payment.

jack-r-abbit 14y ago

> IMO, a 10% service charge without expectation of a tip makes much more sense and is much fairer. But isn't that basically just forcing a 10% tip on everyone with no regard for actual services rendered? While the tipping practice may be flawed, there is at least some built in incentive for the server to aim for more tips. With a mandatory 10% fee, the server has no incentive to go beyond their duty and the customer has no opt out.

aneth 14y ago
Not really. The 10% is required and disclosed, so it is no difference than raising the prices. Tips on the other hand are an imposition since they are both expected and discretionary. Sure, the 10% could be included in the price and wages raised, but it doesn't make much difference. It's the difference between a VAT tax and a sales tax - in the end the amount is the same - sales tax is just more apparent to the consumer.
- jack-r-abbit 14y ago
  I don't understand your logic that "required & fixed" is better than "expected & discretionary" but if that is how you feel then I'm not going to argue with you. We'll just disagree.