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> I put the blame squarely on these institutions and our government for this situation Maybe we should advocate for some personal responsibility as well. Insti

> I put the blame squarely on these institutions and our government for this situation Maybe we should advocate for some personal responsibility as well. Institutions may have offered dead end programs, banks may have financed it, but many individuals took out these loans quite thoughtlessly.

silverquiet 2y ago
Systemic problems require systemic fixes; waxing on about personal responsibility might assuage your feelings, but it does not change the facts.
- pc86 2y ago
  It can be both. There can be systemic issues but you can also look at someone with a Bachelor's in Contemporary French Literature or Gender Studies or Political Science (me) and say "that was pretty dumb of you." Being able to look at that objectively doesn't mean it's feelings but that was a pretty good attempt at turning that around.
  - lapcat 2y ago
    What's the alternative though? Having nobody study political science? Except perhaps rich kids, and having only rich kids study political science might be even worse than having nobody...
    - nradov 2y ago
      Just to play devil's advocate here, what would be the down side if no one studied political science? The country managed to survive pretty well before that field of study was even a thing.
      - lapcat 2y ago
        > Just to play devil's advocate here Sorry, I don't play with devil's advocates. If this is your actual view, then just admit it, and don't pretend to hide behind an imaginary devil.
        nradov 2y ago
        I'm not pretending. I know very little about political science and am asking a sincere question. No agenda.
        lapcat 2y ago
        > I know very little about political science and am asking a sincere question. No agenda. Are you expecting me to explain the field of political science to you in a Hacker News comment?
        RhysU 2y ago
        Yes, including the field's worth and the counterfactual that it doesn't exist as a field of study. gets popcorn But, like, sincerely, first they read some Plato/Aristotle/Machiavelli/etc, second learn about mercantilism's failures, third about modern coopetition in light of the multigenerational UN stalemates, fourth about the Laffer curve, and then what do they do and produce? Specially, someone with a terminal BA in Political Science without an MBA or law school or connections? I am totally ignorant here. (2-3 well-crafted sentences is all that most compelling ideas really need. Plenty of space in an HN comment. It's not Twitter.)
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - pc86 2y ago
      The world does not want for lack of Political Science graduates. It's pretty high on the list of "I have no idea what to study but I need a degree" choices, as evidenced by me gravitating toward it after successively eliminating basically everything else (except, ironically, Computer Science, which would have served me much better in hindsight). Poli Sci is - perhaps not surprisingly - a lot like law where there are pretty good jobs you can get that the degree prepares you decently well for even at the undergrad level. The problem is there are 10 applicants for every one of those jobs, so they come with long hours and subsistence wages. It is objectively a "dumb" thing to do to bank that you'll be one of the minority who gets a job and you'll survive the grind long enough to make a decent living. So there can be systemic issues where we make it way too easy for people who don't really care about politics, or gender, or contemporary French literature, to get a degree in that which is by almost all definitions a worthless piece of paper. And there can also be lack of personal responsibility on the part of that person when they've graduated a decade prior, have never gotten a job relevant to their degree, and think their debt should be forgiven because it's hard to pay it back.
      - lapcat 2y ago
        > The world does not want for lack of Political Science graduates. I don't know about that. I think our electorate could use a lot more political science education. In any case, your statement takes for granted the student loan system. Would the world want for lack of polisci graduates if there were no student loans? > It's pretty high on the list of "I have no idea what to study but I need a degree" choices, as evidenced by me gravitating toward it after successively eliminating basically everything else That's just your personal anecdote. My personal ancedote is that I also got a degree in political science, and it was because I was genuinely interested in political science. > It is objectively a "dumb" thing to do to bank that you'll be one of the minority who gets a job and you'll survive the grind long enough to make a decent living. I would say objectively "risky" rather than dumb. It does pay off for some. Would you say the "winners" were dumb? Would you say that professional athletes who are now fabulously wealthy are dumb because it's "dumb" to pursue a career where most people fail?
        pc86 2y ago
  - silverquiet 2y ago
    I got a STEM degree and worked as much as I could to pay it as I went (with significant help from my parents as well), essentially doing a "996" style schedule for years on end, and got out of school with no debt. In other words, about as individually responsible as it was possible for me to be. I don't think people should have to do that to get a degree either.
jrozner 2y ago
I agree that personal responsibility is important and both things can be true. I also think anyone who believes our taxes are going to go down if we don’t bail students out is delusional. With that belief, I’d rather my taxes directly improve the lives of tens of thousands of people than funnel more money into defense contractors, poorly run construction companies that can’t build infrastructure, and other already wealthy people’s pockets who aren’t actually returning what I think is enough value to the country for what we’re paying.

silverquiet 2y ago

Systemic problems require systemic fixes; waxing on about personal responsibility might assuage your feelings, but it does not change the facts.

pc86 2y ago
It can be both. There can be systemic issues but you can also look at someone with a Bachelor's in Contemporary French Literature or Gender Studies or Political Science (me) and say "that was pretty dumb of you." Being able to look at that objectively doesn't mean it's feelings but that was a pretty good attempt at turning that around.
- lapcat 2y ago
  What's the alternative though? Having nobody study political science? Except perhaps rich kids, and having only rich kids study political science might be even worse than having nobody...
  - nradov 2y ago
    Just to play devil's advocate here, what would be the down side if no one studied political science? The country managed to survive pretty well before that field of study was even a thing.
    - lapcat 2y ago
      > Just to play devil's advocate here Sorry, I don't play with devil's advocates. If this is your actual view, then just admit it, and don't pretend to hide behind an imaginary devil.
      - nradov 2y ago
        I'm not pretending. I know very little about political science and am asking a sincere question. No agenda.
        lapcat 2y ago
        > I know very little about political science and am asking a sincere question. No agenda. Are you expecting me to explain the field of political science to you in a Hacker News comment?
        RhysU 2y ago
        Yes, including the field's worth and the counterfactual that it doesn't exist as a field of study. gets popcorn But, like, sincerely, first they read some Plato/Aristotle/Machiavelli/etc, second learn about mercantilism's failures, third about modern coopetition in light of the multigenerational UN stalemates, fourth about the Laffer curve, and then what do they do and produce? Specially, someone with a terminal BA in Political Science without an MBA or law school or connections? I am totally ignorant here. (2-3 well-crafted sentences is all that most compelling ideas really need. Plenty of space in an HN comment. It's not Twitter.)
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - pc86 2y ago
    The world does not want for lack of Political Science graduates. It's pretty high on the list of "I have no idea what to study but I need a degree" choices, as evidenced by me gravitating toward it after successively eliminating basically everything else (except, ironically, Computer Science, which would have served me much better in hindsight). Poli Sci is - perhaps not surprisingly - a lot like law where there are pretty good jobs you can get that the degree prepares you decently well for even at the undergrad level. The problem is there are 10 applicants for every one of those jobs, so they come with long hours and subsistence wages. It is objectively a "dumb" thing to do to bank that you'll be one of the minority who gets a job and you'll survive the grind long enough to make a decent living. So there can be systemic issues where we make it way too easy for people who don't really care about politics, or gender, or contemporary French literature, to get a degree in that which is by almost all definitions a worthless piece of paper. And there can also be lack of personal responsibility on the part of that person when they've graduated a decade prior, have never gotten a job relevant to their degree, and think their debt should be forgiven because it's hard to pay it back.
    - lapcat 2y ago
      > The world does not want for lack of Political Science graduates. I don't know about that. I think our electorate could use a lot more political science education. In any case, your statement takes for granted the student loan system. Would the world want for lack of polisci graduates if there were no student loans? > It's pretty high on the list of "I have no idea what to study but I need a degree" choices, as evidenced by me gravitating toward it after successively eliminating basically everything else That's just your personal anecdote. My personal ancedote is that I also got a degree in political science, and it was because I was genuinely interested in political science. > It is objectively a "dumb" thing to do to bank that you'll be one of the minority who gets a job and you'll survive the grind long enough to make a decent living. I would say objectively "risky" rather than dumb. It does pay off for some. Would you say the "winners" were dumb? Would you say that professional athletes who are now fabulously wealthy are dumb because it's "dumb" to pursue a career where most people fail?
      - pc86 2y ago
- silverquiet 2y ago
  I got a STEM degree and worked as much as I could to pay it as I went (with significant help from my parents as well), essentially doing a "996" style schedule for years on end, and got out of school with no debt. In other words, about as individually responsible as it was possible for me to be. I don't think people should have to do that to get a degree either.

jrozner 2y ago

I agree that personal responsibility is important and both things can be true. I also think anyone who believes our taxes are going to go down if we don’t bail students out is delusional. With that belief, I’d rather my taxes directly improve the lives of tens of thousands of people than funnel more money into defense contractors, poorly run construction companies that can’t build infrastructure, and other already wealthy people’s pockets who aren’t actually returning what I think is enough value to the country for what we’re paying.