12 ms·

Legos, spaceships, breasts.

14 points by MichaelJW 14y ago

factorial 14y ago
There's nothing keeping parents from buying the more elaborate LEGO set for their daughters.
- swa14 14y ago
  There's nothing keeping men from wearing skirts in public either. But most of us do not do so because of gender differences ingrained in out society. Identifying yourself by your gender can be harmless and doesn't need to be detrimental to society or equal treatment. But the premise of the blog is "the virtues of Legos for teaching math and engineering concepts to children." If this premise is taken as true, this particular distinction in gender is harmful to equality of the genders. It's not just that the particular pink set reinforces certain stereotypes, but also that it's simpler and requires less abstract thought to put together. That said; I'm sure the people at lego have done their market research, and have found that girls (or their mothers) find the "girly" sets more pleasant. Also the people at the outlet will have their reasons for a "blue isle" and a "pink isle". I guess the morale of the story is for the parents. To not let themselves fall into the trap of the largest common commercial denominator, but to drag your daughter/son at least once through the "wrong isle" when buying toys in an unbiased manner.
  - factorial 14y ago
    Sadly, the author doesn't understand the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy and neglects the possibility that boys and girls are simply "wired" differently. Modern science supports this view as there are significant differences between the brains of both sexes. If you accept biology as given, then wouldn't it be "normal" that boys and girls prefer different toys and children, and that men and women flock into different occupational areas as adults? Also, why are those feminists only lamenting the lack of female engineers? There are many fields that require that kind of analytical thinking, albeit on lower levels. Heck, why not start a, "Get more girls into plumbing!" campaign? Of course, the feminists are only after the cushy office jobs.
    - lomegor 14y ago
      Please if you are going to say that girls are "wired" differently and that's what causes the different likes and dislikes of children, back that up with articles. I have yet to see a study where this had been shown. In fact, I think you are also falling prey to "post hoc ergo propter hoc", in that although women and men's brain are different, that does not mean that they like different toys biologically. I'm sorry that you group all feminists together, but if you had bother to search for women in plumbing you would have found a lot of women and men who call for more women in that area. For example: http://www.my-plumber.co.uk/userfiles/file/Winter%20Newsletter.pdf http://www.my-plumber.co.uk/userfiles/file/Winter%20Newslett...
      - factorial 14y ago
        Do a Google search on "IT needs more women", make a mental note of the number of hits you get, and then do a search on "Plumbing needs more women". Please report back which number is bigger. For extra credit, calculate by which factor the first claim is more often made online.
        lomegor 14y ago
        Oh, I'm sorry, when you said "only" on your first post I thought you meant "only", not "more". But of course people are more interested on getting children interested in engineering. I don't see your point. Do you want your kids to be plumbers making a minimum salary and having unstable jobs?
        factorial 14y ago
        You'd be surprised how much money plumbers make. Check this out: "Americans want and need working pipes, just like they want and need their trash collected every few days — sanitation being another service always in demand by consumers and not always in demand by job-seekers, and typically pretty well paying as a result. That said, a plumber's earnings vary widely depending on the region in which they work and whether a plumber owns a business that employs others. Journeymen in cities such as New York, Chicago, Los Angeles and Boston are in higher demand and command higher prices — up to about $250,000 a year."[1] It's a respectable profession that pays well. Yet, it apparently enjoys lower status than software engineering, which is why feminists don't claim that plumbing needs more women. Do you know see how disreputable this argument is? The feminists are about the status of office jobs, and couldn't care less about equality. [1]http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1851673,00.html http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1851673,00.ht...
rickdangerous1 14y ago
There is a bigger picture problem here. With the move to cross licensing movie tie in Lego sets, many kids only experience of Lego is building Pirates of the Caribean pirate ships, instead of the more engineering focused experiences. What I'm saying is, even Lego isn't Lego anymore (to a large degree).
- lomegor 14y ago
  I don't think that's the biggest picture. I think that's important too, but it's another problem in a different subset.
- DanBC 14y ago
  I do miss the free form play of Lego. I feel a bit sad that there are so many special use bricks. But I underestimate the ability of children to play - I'm confidant that they'll happily turn that boat into something else. I've been wanting to stock up on Lego kits for when my boy is old enough to enjoy it. I'd prefer to buy from a real local toy shop. I want big box sets of mixed bricks; mixed sizes shape and colours. I'd only need a few kits with plans, the rest I'd prefer to be free-form play. It's much easier for me to buy this stuff second hand and then wash it than it is for me to buy it new. I don't think I'm an unusual edge case. I can buy this stuff online. But I feel a bit sad that local toyshops are dying. I do tell them what I'm looking for. None of them have offered to order the stuff in for me.
yummyfajitas 14y ago
Here is a question I don't quite understand. We are supposed to "get pissed" because some children are allowed/encouraged to play with a simpler lego toy that emphasizes fashion and beauty. Is it wrong to allow/encourage a child to develop an interest in fashion and beauty? I wish the authors of articles like this would state exactly what moral principle they believe is violated.
- lomegor 14y ago
  Would you be OK if Lego targeted toy for black kids so they can learn how to plough the fields? The situation here is similar. It's not exactly wrong that a company decides to sell two different kinds of toy. What's wrong is the cultural mindset that dictates that girls should be more interested in fashion and beauty than engineering (for example). The moral principle being violated is that men and women are equal. That girls and boy can grow to be whatever they like. Because when you build different toys for girls and boys, you are clearly stating otherwise.
  - factorial 14y ago
    Did it ever strike you that men and women are not actually the same? I know, this line of reasoning is not popular among the gender studies-infested crowd, but it's just biology. There are dolls because girls like to play with dolls, and not because we force them to play with them. There are differences between male and female brains, and this is why they prefer different activities. Read up on science before making your absurd statements. Yes, girls and boys can grow up to become whoever they like, but most girls just don't like technology, just as most guys have little interest in playing with dolls. Blame biology but not society.
    - yummyfajitas 14y ago
      You are confusing positive and normative. The question I asked, and which lomegor was responding to, was a normative one - how should the world be and what moral assumptions are made to derive this conclusion. You are discussing a positive question, namely why individuals might have certain preferences.
fifteen3 14y ago
Unfortunately i lost her at Legos. It is LEGO or Lego or lego. There is no plural form of LEGO.
- michaelcampbell 14y ago
  I think you misspelled "pedantic".
amirmc 14y ago
I don't understand what we should be 'pissed' at. From a previous article when 'girl Lego' was announced: "The company embedded researchers with families around the world, to shadow girls and boys and watch how they play. Based on this research, it came up with Lego Friends, a line that features five characters with back stories similar to those of the wildly popular American Girl dolls."[1] Lego did some actual research and is making something that fits the market as it is today. Who should we be pissed at and why? [1] http://www.npr.org/2011/12/15/143724644/ith-new-toys-lego-hopes-to-build-girls-market http://www.npr.org/2011/12/15/143724644/ith-new-toys-lego-ho...
- DanBC 14y ago
  Depends how good the research is. But, knowing how much money is in the toy industry (an eye watering amount, even compared to some tech businesses) I suppose it's good. But then just because it's researched doesn't mean it's good. Why do girls now prefer the narrative form of a previously creative toy? Why do lego blocks need a back story? Is that something that girls have always wanted; is it something that's created by changes in society; is it beneficial to girls? Is it possible harmful to boys to not have the narrative toys? (Although, with all the ROBOT BATTLE IN SPACE stuff hat lego has done for years I suppose they're just re-balancing an existing skew). There's a lot of research about the "princess phase" which is why most toys for girls are boxed in that disgusting pink - purple combination. This book is quite good. The biases are clear. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Real-Toy-Story-Consumers/dp/0552774065/ http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Real-Toy-Story-Consumers/dp/0552...)
  - amirmc 14y ago
    Yup, just because it's researched doesn't mean it was good research (from a general standpoint). Since this is Lego's 6th attempt at reaching this market, I'll assume they've tried to take extra care. It's even possible that the work was done in collaboration with university academics (with peer-reviewed papers as a result). If it doesn't work, I'm sure they'll figure out what went wrong and make a 7th attempt in due course. The questions you pose are excellent research topics in their own right (if reworded slightly). I really hope there are people out there looking into them. I remember reading some autism-related research that described how even newborn babies exhibited male/female differences (very contentious at the time and I don't know how the field developed).

14 points by MichaelJW 14y ago

factorial 14y ago

There's nothing keeping parents from buying the more elaborate LEGO set for their daughters.

swa14 14y ago
There's nothing keeping men from wearing skirts in public either. But most of us do not do so because of gender differences ingrained in out society. Identifying yourself by your gender can be harmless and doesn't need to be detrimental to society or equal treatment. But the premise of the blog is "the virtues of Legos for teaching math and engineering concepts to children." If this premise is taken as true, this particular distinction in gender is harmful to equality of the genders. It's not just that the particular pink set reinforces certain stereotypes, but also that it's simpler and requires less abstract thought to put together. That said; I'm sure the people at lego have done their market research, and have found that girls (or their mothers) find the "girly" sets more pleasant. Also the people at the outlet will have their reasons for a "blue isle" and a "pink isle". I guess the morale of the story is for the parents. To not let themselves fall into the trap of the largest common commercial denominator, but to drag your daughter/son at least once through the "wrong isle" when buying toys in an unbiased manner.
- factorial 14y ago
  Sadly, the author doesn't understand the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy and neglects the possibility that boys and girls are simply "wired" differently. Modern science supports this view as there are significant differences between the brains of both sexes. If you accept biology as given, then wouldn't it be "normal" that boys and girls prefer different toys and children, and that men and women flock into different occupational areas as adults? Also, why are those feminists only lamenting the lack of female engineers? There are many fields that require that kind of analytical thinking, albeit on lower levels. Heck, why not start a, "Get more girls into plumbing!" campaign? Of course, the feminists are only after the cushy office jobs.
  - lomegor 14y ago
    Please if you are going to say that girls are "wired" differently and that's what causes the different likes and dislikes of children, back that up with articles. I have yet to see a study where this had been shown. In fact, I think you are also falling prey to "post hoc ergo propter hoc", in that although women and men's brain are different, that does not mean that they like different toys biologically. I'm sorry that you group all feminists together, but if you had bother to search for women in plumbing you would have found a lot of women and men who call for more women in that area. For example: http://www.my-plumber.co.uk/userfiles/file/Winter%20Newsletter.pdf http://www.my-plumber.co.uk/userfiles/file/Winter%20Newslett...
    - factorial 14y ago
      Do a Google search on "IT needs more women", make a mental note of the number of hits you get, and then do a search on "Plumbing needs more women". Please report back which number is bigger. For extra credit, calculate by which factor the first claim is more often made online.
      - lomegor 14y ago
        Oh, I'm sorry, when you said "only" on your first post I thought you meant "only", not "more". But of course people are more interested on getting children interested in engineering. I don't see your point. Do you want your kids to be plumbers making a minimum salary and having unstable jobs?
        factorial 14y ago
        You'd be surprised how much money plumbers make. Check this out: "Americans want and need working pipes, just like they want and need their trash collected every few days — sanitation being another service always in demand by consumers and not always in demand by job-seekers, and typically pretty well paying as a result. That said, a plumber's earnings vary widely depending on the region in which they work and whether a plumber owns a business that employs others. Journeymen in cities such as New York, Chicago, Los Angeles and Boston are in higher demand and command higher prices — up to about $250,000 a year."[1] It's a respectable profession that pays well. Yet, it apparently enjoys lower status than software engineering, which is why feminists don't claim that plumbing needs more women. Do you know see how disreputable this argument is? The feminists are about the status of office jobs, and couldn't care less about equality. [1]http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1851673,00.html http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1851673,00.ht...

rickdangerous1 14y ago

There is a bigger picture problem here. With the move to cross licensing movie tie in Lego sets, many kids only experience of Lego is building Pirates of the Caribean pirate ships, instead of the more engineering focused experiences. What I'm saying is, even Lego isn't Lego anymore (to a large degree).

lomegor 14y ago
I don't think that's the biggest picture. I think that's important too, but it's another problem in a different subset.
DanBC 14y ago
I do miss the free form play of Lego. I feel a bit sad that there are so many special use bricks. But I underestimate the ability of children to play - I'm confidant that they'll happily turn that boat into something else. I've been wanting to stock up on Lego kits for when my boy is old enough to enjoy it. I'd prefer to buy from a real local toy shop. I want big box sets of mixed bricks; mixed sizes shape and colours. I'd only need a few kits with plans, the rest I'd prefer to be free-form play. It's much easier for me to buy this stuff second hand and then wash it than it is for me to buy it new. I don't think I'm an unusual edge case. I can buy this stuff online. But I feel a bit sad that local toyshops are dying. I do tell them what I'm looking for. None of them have offered to order the stuff in for me.

yummyfajitas 14y ago

Here is a question I don't quite understand. We are supposed to "get pissed" because some children are allowed/encouraged to play with a simpler lego toy that emphasizes fashion and beauty. Is it wrong to allow/encourage a child to develop an interest in fashion and beauty? I wish the authors of articles like this would state exactly what moral principle they believe is violated.

lomegor 14y ago
Would you be OK if Lego targeted toy for black kids so they can learn how to plough the fields? The situation here is similar. It's not exactly wrong that a company decides to sell two different kinds of toy. What's wrong is the cultural mindset that dictates that girls should be more interested in fashion and beauty than engineering (for example). The moral principle being violated is that men and women are equal. That girls and boy can grow to be whatever they like. Because when you build different toys for girls and boys, you are clearly stating otherwise.
- factorial 14y ago
  Did it ever strike you that men and women are not actually the same? I know, this line of reasoning is not popular among the gender studies-infested crowd, but it's just biology. There are dolls because girls like to play with dolls, and not because we force them to play with them. There are differences between male and female brains, and this is why they prefer different activities. Read up on science before making your absurd statements. Yes, girls and boys can grow up to become whoever they like, but most girls just don't like technology, just as most guys have little interest in playing with dolls. Blame biology but not society.
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    You are confusing positive and normative. The question I asked, and which lomegor was responding to, was a normative one - how should the world be and what moral assumptions are made to derive this conclusion. You are discussing a positive question, namely why individuals might have certain preferences.

fifteen3 14y ago

Unfortunately i lost her at Legos. It is LEGO or Lego or lego. There is no plural form of LEGO.

michaelcampbell 14y ago
I think you misspelled "pedantic".

amirmc 14y ago

I don't understand what we should be 'pissed' at. From a previous article when 'girl Lego' was announced: "The company embedded researchers with families around the world, to shadow girls and boys and watch how they play. Based on this research, it came up with Lego Friends, a line that features five characters with back stories similar to those of the wildly popular American Girl dolls."[1] Lego did some actual research and is making something that fits the market as it is today. Who should we be pissed at and why? [1] http://www.npr.org/2011/12/15/143724644/ith-new-toys-lego-hopes-to-build-girls-market http://www.npr.org/2011/12/15/143724644/ith-new-toys-lego-ho...

DanBC 14y ago
Depends how good the research is. But, knowing how much money is in the toy industry (an eye watering amount, even compared to some tech businesses) I suppose it's good. But then just because it's researched doesn't mean it's good. Why do girls now prefer the narrative form of a previously creative toy? Why do lego blocks need a back story? Is that something that girls have always wanted; is it something that's created by changes in society; is it beneficial to girls? Is it possible harmful to boys to not have the narrative toys? (Although, with all the ROBOT BATTLE IN SPACE stuff hat lego has done for years I suppose they're just re-balancing an existing skew). There's a lot of research about the "princess phase" which is why most toys for girls are boxed in that disgusting pink - purple combination. This book is quite good. The biases are clear. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Real-Toy-Story-Consumers/dp/0552774065/ http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Real-Toy-Story-Consumers/dp/0552...)
- amirmc 14y ago
  Yup, just because it's researched doesn't mean it was good research (from a general standpoint). Since this is Lego's 6th attempt at reaching this market, I'll assume they've tried to take extra care. It's even possible that the work was done in collaboration with university academics (with peer-reviewed papers as a result). If it doesn't work, I'm sure they'll figure out what went wrong and make a 7th attempt in due course. The questions you pose are excellent research topics in their own right (if reworded slightly). I really hope there are people out there looking into them. I remember reading some autism-related research that described how even newborn babies exhibited male/female differences (very contentious at the time and I don't know how the field developed).