9 ms·

Microsoft still haven't implemented a native vertical taskbar after all the years of it being in the top voted[1] request (part of the request to move to any si

Microsoft still haven't implemented a native vertical taskbar after all the years of it being in the top voted[1] request (part of the request to move to any side of the screen) and the fact it's been part of Windows for like 15 years. It's a dealbreaker tbh. Third-party tools that restored the W10 taskbar in W11 allowed users to continue having a taskbar that's usable for them yet the latest W11 betas show they're removing that legacy code. It'd be fine if they were replacing it with an equivalent but they're not. [1] https://www.neowin.net/news/ability-to-move-the-windows-11-taskbar-is-the-most-requested-feature-on-feedback-hub/ https://www.neowin.net/news/ability-to-move-the-windows-11-t...

jiggawatts 2y ago
It's because the Windows 11 UI was designed by people who've never used anything other that an Apple Mac. Yes, Microsoft hires employees with zero Windows experience to design their operating system. That's why the Windows 11 taskbar has the icons centred -- because Apple OSX does too. That's why there's no way to drag the taskbar around -- because Apple OSX doesn't allow this either. Etc...
- userbinator 2y ago
  You're being downvoted on only 1/4 of the points you made, but the other 3/4 is true: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30019307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30019307
  - jiggawatts 2y ago
    I've always been fascinated by forum up/down voting patterns. It's a lens onto human group behaviour. I've said things that are totally wrong and been voted up, and said things that are essentially correct except for some tiny detail and been voted down into oblivion. What especially gets people riled up is if there's an element of tribalism involved. Can be anything: text editors, political party, operating system, programming language, or whatever. You don't even have to be pro/anti any specific tribe. Just mentioning anything to do with such a topic gets people worked up and angry even if your point is strictly neutral or objective. It's always fun to watch this play out in the microcosm of some obscure topic...
- supernes 2y ago
  You can move the Dock to the side of the screen and in fact many people do. What's the excuse for not copying that functionality?
  - out-of-ideas 2y ago
    this assumes the programmer knows how to change app settings; ive seen many a great programmers know quite little about the actual apps they install (or comes with) and use; dont even get me started about folks who "program" but simply just edit a file and dont use the actual app to test things (and instead rely on build-systems) - strange i must say, but it happens so much im not surprised by it, just forever saddened
    - supernes 2y ago
      I've seen my share of horror stories, but I'm also the type of idealist that believes the people whom a $3T corporation hires to work on one of its core products would know better. It's more than likely that ultimately the decision was not in the hands of a technical (or seemingly even a computer literate) person.
- hurril 2y ago
  My Apple Mac OSX taskbar (sic) is to the left on my screen. Auto-hidden. Just like I keep my taskbar on my Windows-box.
  - sircastor 2y ago
    Mine’s to the right. Also auto hidden.
- pacifika 2y ago
  I thought it was centered to better support ultra widescreen users
  - Narishma 2y ago
    So they make it worse for everyone else to support a minority of users?
- crimsontech 2y ago
  > That's why there's no way to drag the taskbar around -- because Apple OSX doesn't allow this either. It does though. https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/mac-help/mchlp1119/mac https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/mac-help/mchlp1119/mac
- Ringz 2y ago
  Apple allows to drag the taskbar “around”. Mine auto hides away, since I barely use it (I try to use the mouse as little as possible).
- probably_jesus 2y ago
  Apple and Microsoft are competing on who can make the worst UX in the desktop arena. Window management is so bad in osx and I refuse to pay for add-ons to make things slightly better when Linux and the small galaxy of window managers have been doing it so well, and for free, for literally decades.
  - philistine 2y ago
    Are you always using full screen apps? If you are, yeah it’s bad. If you got a big enough screen, know the shortcuts, and you are not using full screen apps, macOS is untouchable.
  - finaard 2y ago
    I recently got a m3 macbook pro (mainly because the general notebook market has been shit for a decade now, I needed to replace my more than a decade old one, and there's pretty much nothing apart from apple which is relatively small, has long battery life, a shitload of RAM and a powerful CPU). Once there's Linux support for M3 I'll probably switch (have an M1 macbook air with Linux which is doing well) - until then I got things close enough to my Linux Hyprland setup with yabai that it is relatively painfree to use.
- true_religion 2y ago
  Designers don’t make things based on their experience with the product. They do research, evaluate multiple variations, get buy in from stakeholders and then AB test the final result. It’s definitely not as simple as let’s do this because I saw it somewhere before.
  - jiggawatts 2y ago
    Icons in the middle of a task bar is objectively, measurably less user-friendly than left aligned icons. With the standard Windows layout users can develop “muscle memory”, especially for the bottom left corner of the screen — which is very easy to hit with a mouse because the edges of the screen “trap” the cursor. With middle aligned icons, every new app shifts the existing icons. Also there is no icon in an easy to hit location. Windows 11 has some other design elements that broke Microsoft’s own integrations. As a random example: “Open with VS Code” and “Terminal here” are hidden submenus now.
zelphirkalt 2y ago
Funny, how many GNU/Linux desktop environments allow you to do that easily, while being developed by a handful of people, while MS has probably hordes of people working on the UI of Windows. They just don't seem to get it or have complelety incapable UI/UX designers or something.
- lolc 2y ago
  Every configuration option is a support burden. I say tihs as a KDE user who installed Gnome for the parents.
  - zelphirkalt 2y ago
    So how come, that far fewer people can role out such a feature easily, while MS cannot? "No need to offer support." I hear you say, but is that really it? If the feature just works well, because it has been developed well, and does not cause many if any support cases, then that point would be invalid. Lets take for example XFCE panels. I can stick them wherever I like. If there is a problem, then it is with panels themselves, not with their position. And for things like deskbar mode I can write a wiki article and point people to that. I think support shouldn't be such an issue, if things are well done. And of course you can always have less-power users, who will have some issue. But they will have issues anyway, if not with a deskbar kind of thing, then with some other thing. Should MS therefore strip their OS of all features? It seems ridiculous. Why not release a "Windows for computer illiterate" version then and keep a capable version?
  - crtasm 2y ago
    I'd be fine with it being part of Powertoys.
  - infamia 2y ago
    Let's be real, MS doesn't give a flying flip about support. They use their customers as alpha and beta testers. It has been a few years, but the last time I used Premium Support it was a miserable experience. The agents knew about as much as I did and wasted my time waiting around for a call backs that solved nothing. They don't care. I would hang my head in shame to be associated with such a rotten organization like MS. I don't know how some of those folks sleep at night working for MS.
maldie 2y ago
This is complete insanity that vertical task bar is still not implemented, pretty much what OS has to do - manage memory, manage processes/threads, manage windows to enable smooth UX with multiple programs. It more and more fails on the last one. Seems the policies have changed to drop support for everything that is used for example less than 1% of users, (just neglecting 10 million users, costing likely billions $ time and sweat for those users, nbd). Even if it would cost MS like tow part time developers time/money. It is such a neccessary multitasking functionality on work environments that I'm quite lost when Win 10 support ends and the alternative taskbar tools do not work reliably then. Small hope that Windows 12 or whatever comes next would be the better one.

jiggawatts 2y ago

It's because the Windows 11 UI was designed by people who've never used anything other that an Apple Mac. Yes, Microsoft hires employees with zero Windows experience to design their operating system. That's why the Windows 11 taskbar has the icons centred -- because Apple OSX does too. That's why there's no way to drag the taskbar around -- because Apple OSX doesn't allow this either. Etc...

userbinator 2y ago
You're being downvoted on only 1/4 of the points you made, but the other 3/4 is true: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30019307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30019307
- jiggawatts 2y ago
  I've always been fascinated by forum up/down voting patterns. It's a lens onto human group behaviour. I've said things that are totally wrong and been voted up, and said things that are essentially correct except for some tiny detail and been voted down into oblivion. What especially gets people riled up is if there's an element of tribalism involved. Can be anything: text editors, political party, operating system, programming language, or whatever. You don't even have to be pro/anti any specific tribe. Just mentioning anything to do with such a topic gets people worked up and angry even if your point is strictly neutral or objective. It's always fun to watch this play out in the microcosm of some obscure topic...
supernes 2y ago
You can move the Dock to the side of the screen and in fact many people do. What's the excuse for not copying that functionality?
- out-of-ideas 2y ago
  this assumes the programmer knows how to change app settings; ive seen many a great programmers know quite little about the actual apps they install (or comes with) and use; dont even get me started about folks who "program" but simply just edit a file and dont use the actual app to test things (and instead rely on build-systems) - strange i must say, but it happens so much im not surprised by it, just forever saddened
  - supernes 2y ago
    I've seen my share of horror stories, but I'm also the type of idealist that believes the people whom a $3T corporation hires to work on one of its core products would know better. It's more than likely that ultimately the decision was not in the hands of a technical (or seemingly even a computer literate) person.
hurril 2y ago
My Apple Mac OSX taskbar (sic) is to the left on my screen. Auto-hidden. Just like I keep my taskbar on my Windows-box.
- sircastor 2y ago
  Mine’s to the right. Also auto hidden.
pacifika 2y ago
I thought it was centered to better support ultra widescreen users
- Narishma 2y ago
  So they make it worse for everyone else to support a minority of users?
crimsontech 2y ago
> That's why there's no way to drag the taskbar around -- because Apple OSX doesn't allow this either. It does though. https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/mac-help/mchlp1119/mac https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/mac-help/mchlp1119/mac
Ringz 2y ago
Apple allows to drag the taskbar “around”. Mine auto hides away, since I barely use it (I try to use the mouse as little as possible).
probably_jesus 2y ago
Apple and Microsoft are competing on who can make the worst UX in the desktop arena. Window management is so bad in osx and I refuse to pay for add-ons to make things slightly better when Linux and the small galaxy of window managers have been doing it so well, and for free, for literally decades.
- philistine 2y ago
  Are you always using full screen apps? If you are, yeah it’s bad. If you got a big enough screen, know the shortcuts, and you are not using full screen apps, macOS is untouchable.
- finaard 2y ago
  I recently got a m3 macbook pro (mainly because the general notebook market has been shit for a decade now, I needed to replace my more than a decade old one, and there's pretty much nothing apart from apple which is relatively small, has long battery life, a shitload of RAM and a powerful CPU). Once there's Linux support for M3 I'll probably switch (have an M1 macbook air with Linux which is doing well) - until then I got things close enough to my Linux Hyprland setup with yabai that it is relatively painfree to use.
true_religion 2y ago
Designers don’t make things based on their experience with the product. They do research, evaluate multiple variations, get buy in from stakeholders and then AB test the final result. It’s definitely not as simple as let’s do this because I saw it somewhere before.
- jiggawatts 2y ago
  Icons in the middle of a task bar is objectively, measurably less user-friendly than left aligned icons. With the standard Windows layout users can develop “muscle memory”, especially for the bottom left corner of the screen — which is very easy to hit with a mouse because the edges of the screen “trap” the cursor. With middle aligned icons, every new app shifts the existing icons. Also there is no icon in an easy to hit location. Windows 11 has some other design elements that broke Microsoft’s own integrations. As a random example: “Open with VS Code” and “Terminal here” are hidden submenus now.

zelphirkalt 2y ago

Funny, how many GNU/Linux desktop environments allow you to do that easily, while being developed by a handful of people, while MS has probably hordes of people working on the UI of Windows. They just don't seem to get it or have complelety incapable UI/UX designers or something.

lolc 2y ago
Every configuration option is a support burden. I say tihs as a KDE user who installed Gnome for the parents.
- zelphirkalt 2y ago
  So how come, that far fewer people can role out such a feature easily, while MS cannot? "No need to offer support." I hear you say, but is that really it? If the feature just works well, because it has been developed well, and does not cause many if any support cases, then that point would be invalid. Lets take for example XFCE panels. I can stick them wherever I like. If there is a problem, then it is with panels themselves, not with their position. And for things like deskbar mode I can write a wiki article and point people to that. I think support shouldn't be such an issue, if things are well done. And of course you can always have less-power users, who will have some issue. But they will have issues anyway, if not with a deskbar kind of thing, then with some other thing. Should MS therefore strip their OS of all features? It seems ridiculous. Why not release a "Windows for computer illiterate" version then and keep a capable version?
- crtasm 2y ago
  I'd be fine with it being part of Powertoys.
- infamia 2y ago
  Let's be real, MS doesn't give a flying flip about support. They use their customers as alpha and beta testers. It has been a few years, but the last time I used Premium Support it was a miserable experience. The agents knew about as much as I did and wasted my time waiting around for a call backs that solved nothing. They don't care. I would hang my head in shame to be associated with such a rotten organization like MS. I don't know how some of those folks sleep at night working for MS.

maldie 2y ago

This is complete insanity that vertical task bar is still not implemented, pretty much what OS has to do - manage memory, manage processes/threads, manage windows to enable smooth UX with multiple programs. It more and more fails on the last one. Seems the policies have changed to drop support for everything that is used for example less than 1% of users, (just neglecting 10 million users, costing likely billions $ time and sweat for those users, nbd). Even if it would cost MS like tow part time developers time/money. It is such a neccessary multitasking functionality on work environments that I'm quite lost when Win 10 support ends and the alternative taskbar tools do not work reliably then. Small hope that Windows 12 or whatever comes next would be the better one.