7 ms·

Neuron's DNA is not passed down, it would be quite logical for evolution to use neuronal DNA for weight storage.

londons_explore 2y ago
Many nervous system behaviours do appear to be passed through genetics - for example, the ability to breathe, the reflex to avoid pain, etc. I suspect in the future we might find mechanisms beyond simple natural selection that allowed those mechanisms to get encoded in genetics.
- throwaway4aday 2y ago
  I think you're talking to the wrong point. These memories aren't being encoded in germ cells, they are after the fact changes to DNA in mature neurons which have completely differentiated. I would think it's very possible at that stage of development for them to add or remove segments of DNA in order to encode new information not related to the development of the cell as long as it didn't interfere too much with parts that are actively used for the ongoing upkeep of cell activity. It would need to alter how the cell functions a little bit for the changes to modify the neuron's ability to process signals though.
  - CuriouslyC 2y ago
    I should note that studies have demonstrated that bacteria who have been modified not to be able to consume lactose will develop mutations that allow them to consume lactose again much more quickly than would be expected given the number of bacteria, the rate of random mutations and the size of the genome. It has been hypothesized that there is a cellular mechanism to control which portions of DNA are easily mutable, possibly through a combination of chromatin structure, epigenetic modification and changes to the local chemical environment via metabolism. This mechanism might exist in a scaled up form in humans.
    - juitpykyk 2y ago
      Isn't that what happens in antibody germinal centers? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_hypermutation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_hypermutation
    - rolph 2y ago
      bacterial plasmids are a common form of horizontal gene flow between individuals
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
  Could they be transferred while in the womb?
cjbgkagh 2y ago
I wonder if that means that each neuron could act as a mini turning machine
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- rolph 2y ago
  stop wondering and look deeper, youve bumped into the begining of an incredible journey. even individual protiens, exhibit rule paring.
  - cjbgkagh 2y ago
    My equivocation was to avoid downvote brigades that hit me last time I posited this same idea on HN.
- rolisz 2y ago
  Check out Michael Levin's work, who's done some experiments with skin cell and has shown that they learn to do stuff.
phkahler 2y ago
>> it would be quite logical for evolution to use neuronal DNA for weight storage. To pass that down you'd have to replicate the connectivity of the network for the weights to be relevant right? Related: The article doesn't say which DNA areas are broken and repaired. Nor does it say if they are modified. It seems like encoding weights in DNA would make them more robust but harder to change. If so, there should be a particular region where this is happening. Maybe there's a mapping between certain DNA areas and each synapse. That'd be really interesting.
- juitpykyk 2y ago
  Neurons are not on the germ line, whatever happens to their DNA is not passed down to your children. There was another article in the recent years about neurons using RNA or DNA for storing information related to their activation patterns.
  - rolph 2y ago
    epigenetic inheritance is real
  - axus 2y ago
    The baby is connected to the mother's placenta for months, maybe information could be transmitted then. I've never heard anything to support that idea, though!
    - JPLeRouzic 2y ago
      In addition, most parts of the first cell of what will become a baby, come from the mother. This includes all DNA in mitochondria and another organelle that I don't remember the name.
    - thro1 2y ago
      Wellcome. Sometimes it may happen that familiar stem cells cross maternal-fetal barrier in placenta, persist somehow and start to function regardless, where stem cells are needed - usually in younger sibling coming from the older, in place of original cells, even in the brain - forming part of it as of another person (more or less) - interconnected but not the same.. The Most Mysterious Cells in Our Bodies Don't Belong to Us https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2024/01/fetal-maternal-cells-microchimerism/676996/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2024/01/fetal-ma... ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38861497 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38861497 )

Many nervous system behaviours do appear to be passed through genetics - for example, the ability to breathe, the reflex to avoid pain, etc. I suspect in the future we might find mechanisms beyond simple natural selection that allowed those mechanisms to get encoded in genetics.

throwaway4aday 2y ago
I think you're talking to the wrong point. These memories aren't being encoded in germ cells, they are after the fact changes to DNA in mature neurons which have completely differentiated. I would think it's very possible at that stage of development for them to add or remove segments of DNA in order to encode new information not related to the development of the cell as long as it didn't interfere too much with parts that are actively used for the ongoing upkeep of cell activity. It would need to alter how the cell functions a little bit for the changes to modify the neuron's ability to process signals though.
- CuriouslyC 2y ago
  I should note that studies have demonstrated that bacteria who have been modified not to be able to consume lactose will develop mutations that allow them to consume lactose again much more quickly than would be expected given the number of bacteria, the rate of random mutations and the size of the genome. It has been hypothesized that there is a cellular mechanism to control which portions of DNA are easily mutable, possibly through a combination of chromatin structure, epigenetic modification and changes to the local chemical environment via metabolism. This mechanism might exist in a scaled up form in humans.
  - juitpykyk 2y ago
    Isn't that what happens in antibody germinal centers? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_hypermutation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_hypermutation
  - rolph 2y ago
    bacterial plasmids are a common form of horizontal gene flow between individuals
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
Could they be transferred while in the womb?

cjbgkagh 2y ago

I wonder if that means that each neuron could act as a mini turning machine

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
rolph 2y ago
stop wondering and look deeper, youve bumped into the begining of an incredible journey. even individual protiens, exhibit rule paring.
- cjbgkagh 2y ago
  My equivocation was to avoid downvote brigades that hit me last time I posited this same idea on HN.
rolisz 2y ago
Check out Michael Levin's work, who's done some experiments with skin cell and has shown that they learn to do stuff.

phkahler 2y ago

>> it would be quite logical for evolution to use neuronal DNA for weight storage. To pass that down you'd have to replicate the connectivity of the network for the weights to be relevant right? Related: The article doesn't say which DNA areas are broken and repaired. Nor does it say if they are modified. It seems like encoding weights in DNA would make them more robust but harder to change. If so, there should be a particular region where this is happening. Maybe there's a mapping between certain DNA areas and each synapse. That'd be really interesting.

juitpykyk 2y ago
Neurons are not on the germ line, whatever happens to their DNA is not passed down to your children. There was another article in the recent years about neurons using RNA or DNA for storing information related to their activation patterns.
- rolph 2y ago
  epigenetic inheritance is real
- axus 2y ago
  The baby is connected to the mother's placenta for months, maybe information could be transmitted then. I've never heard anything to support that idea, though!
  - JPLeRouzic 2y ago
    In addition, most parts of the first cell of what will become a baby, come from the mother. This includes all DNA in mitochondria and another organelle that I don't remember the name.
  - thro1 2y ago
    Wellcome. Sometimes it may happen that familiar stem cells cross maternal-fetal barrier in placenta, persist somehow and start to function regardless, where stem cells are needed - usually in younger sibling coming from the older, in place of original cells, even in the brain - forming part of it as of another person (more or less) - interconnected but not the same.. The Most Mysterious Cells in Our Bodies Don't Belong to Us https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2024/01/fetal-maternal-cells-microchimerism/676996/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2024/01/fetal-ma... ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38861497 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38861497 )