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This is, fortunately, not my experience. In all of my jobs, the most highly regarded people, including by management, were/are those who have an informed opinio

This is, fortunately, not my experience. In all of my jobs, the most highly regarded people, including by management, were/are those who have an informed opinion and are confident enough to voice it, and potentially take responsibilities outside of their job description in order to steer the business in the direction they are convinced is the right one. Note that this handful persons I am referring to _also_ accept criticism and correct their understanding when new information ia given to them: they are not dogmatic jerks. Actually, all my managers were this kind of person, with crazy ideas and not affraid to disagree with anyone. I also had one colleague who was brilliant and had strong opinions about the product, which were expensive and demanding, and was affected by a lay off wave. I think him being original, not "focusing on the core product", and a strong character had something to do with it, so of course it happens.

stareatgoats 2y ago
> This is, fortunately, not my experience. I'm happy for you. I have also had such workplaces, healthy and dynamic organizations. Are they in the majority, or somewhere in the middle in a normal distribution? Not sure, but my guess is not.
- flkiwi 2y ago
  My experience in very large organizations is that, other than CEOs who can go either way, the very top levels are extremely bright, surprisingly well-adjusted people. Tensions arise because, from the perspective of the senior leaders, VPs and below are indistinguishable from the most junior employees, while from the VPs’ perspective they are themselves senior leaders, leading to all sorts of friction. It’s a bizarre environment and I cannot believe how much time I’ve spent in it.
rlpb 2y ago
> in order to steer the business in the direction they are convinced is the right one It's also necessary to be able to accept that others have other opinions and that to make progress everybody needs to be pulling in the same direction. A decision must be made and most of the time it's not going to be exactly what you're convinced is the perfect direction. Yet, having said your piece and perhaps having influenced the direction, it's necessary to then support the final decision even if you don't precisely agree with it. A large proportion of people with the qualities you describe are unable to do this, and therefore tend not to be highly regarded by management. Of course if you consistently find yourself at odds with the eventual direction then you're better off being elsewhere.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  The problem here being that if you are competent you’ll find it a strain to work in an environment that (often) does not listen to your advice, even if that means everyone is pulling in the same direction. It’s nice for everyone else if they’re all contentedly pulling in the wrong direction, not so much for the one that sees that direction for what it is.
  - Eisenstein 2y ago
    In that case how are you sure that you are correct and everyone else is wrong?
    - Aeolun 2y ago
      Experience. Can only suffer from imposter syndrome so many times before you start to see a pattern. Of course, any given instance may be right or wrong, but the balance of probability has shifted. It’s especially egregious when you have literal years of experience with a subject and some person without any of that makes, or gets people to make decisions their way instead.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    And you may be right and you may be wrong. But you'll probably be happier if you go elsewhere.
rokkamokka 2y ago
The other side of the coin is the needlessly defiant people. These believe themselves to be those that "have an informed opinion and are confident enough to voice it", but in reality they just disagree with everything and everyone except themselves. From a third party's point of view they're easy to discern, however.
- ttoinou 2y ago
  Oh those people disagree with themselves very often, that's how you can recognize them
  - jerf 2y ago
    Finding a reason to echo someone's own opinion back at them after a suitable time where they've forgotten they voiced it is a very effective test for disagreeableness, I've found. You don't need to chase them down about the contradiction. Just note it and take appropriate future actions. It can even be a bit amusing, if they are insulting about it, to watch them vigorous call themselves stupid for expressing their previous opinions.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - n1b 2y ago
      Agreed - and you will find not a single living person will pass this test over time. Therefore, it's a worthless, but deeply amusing, test. Human ignorance is so pervasive it even applies to people like you :)
      - jerf 2y ago
        I can tu quoque right back at you; can you conceive of a person who expresses some opinion (and this includes technical matters, things within the scope of your job, opinions you are being paid to have, not just random political things) only and solely because it is their real opinion? No, if you came at with me with my own opinion two weeks later, you would not find I have radically shifted very often, and even less often without realizing I've shifted, and virtually never insulting whoever held the opinion I held two weeks ago. I don't base my opinions on whether or not I get to contradict someone else. Clearly some people do.
ghaff 2y ago
>I think him being original, not "focusing on the core product", and a strong character had something to do with it, so of course it happens. You absolutely have people who are very competent but just not interested in what management (rightly or wrongly) thinks should be the current priorities. Sometimes things advance to the point where there's no longer a good fit. Not necessarily anyone's fault but it may be time to part ways.
yosefk 2y ago
Sounds great! Care to share the places you've seen this at?

stareatgoats 2y ago

> This is, fortunately, not my experience. I'm happy for you. I have also had such workplaces, healthy and dynamic organizations. Are they in the majority, or somewhere in the middle in a normal distribution? Not sure, but my guess is not.

flkiwi 2y ago
My experience in very large organizations is that, other than CEOs who can go either way, the very top levels are extremely bright, surprisingly well-adjusted people. Tensions arise because, from the perspective of the senior leaders, VPs and below are indistinguishable from the most junior employees, while from the VPs’ perspective they are themselves senior leaders, leading to all sorts of friction. It’s a bizarre environment and I cannot believe how much time I’ve spent in it.

rlpb 2y ago

> in order to steer the business in the direction they are convinced is the right one It's also necessary to be able to accept that others have other opinions and that to make progress everybody needs to be pulling in the same direction. A decision must be made and most of the time it's not going to be exactly what you're convinced is the perfect direction. Yet, having said your piece and perhaps having influenced the direction, it's necessary to then support the final decision even if you don't precisely agree with it. A large proportion of people with the qualities you describe are unable to do this, and therefore tend not to be highly regarded by management. Of course if you consistently find yourself at odds with the eventual direction then you're better off being elsewhere.

Aeolun 2y ago
The problem here being that if you are competent you’ll find it a strain to work in an environment that (often) does not listen to your advice, even if that means everyone is pulling in the same direction. It’s nice for everyone else if they’re all contentedly pulling in the wrong direction, not so much for the one that sees that direction for what it is.
- Eisenstein 2y ago
  In that case how are you sure that you are correct and everyone else is wrong?
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    Experience. Can only suffer from imposter syndrome so many times before you start to see a pattern. Of course, any given instance may be right or wrong, but the balance of probability has shifted. It’s especially egregious when you have literal years of experience with a subject and some person without any of that makes, or gets people to make decisions their way instead.
- ghaff 2y ago
  And you may be right and you may be wrong. But you'll probably be happier if you go elsewhere.

rokkamokka 2y ago

The other side of the coin is the needlessly defiant people. These believe themselves to be those that "have an informed opinion and are confident enough to voice it", but in reality they just disagree with everything and everyone except themselves. From a third party's point of view they're easy to discern, however.

ttoinou 2y ago
Oh those people disagree with themselves very often, that's how you can recognize them
- jerf 2y ago
  Finding a reason to echo someone's own opinion back at them after a suitable time where they've forgotten they voiced it is a very effective test for disagreeableness, I've found. You don't need to chase them down about the contradiction. Just note it and take appropriate future actions. It can even be a bit amusing, if they are insulting about it, to watch them vigorous call themselves stupid for expressing their previous opinions.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - n1b 2y ago
    Agreed - and you will find not a single living person will pass this test over time. Therefore, it's a worthless, but deeply amusing, test. Human ignorance is so pervasive it even applies to people like you :)
    - jerf 2y ago
      I can tu quoque right back at you; can you conceive of a person who expresses some opinion (and this includes technical matters, things within the scope of your job, opinions you are being paid to have, not just random political things) only and solely because it is their real opinion? No, if you came at with me with my own opinion two weeks later, you would not find I have radically shifted very often, and even less often without realizing I've shifted, and virtually never insulting whoever held the opinion I held two weeks ago. I don't base my opinions on whether or not I get to contradict someone else. Clearly some people do.

ghaff 2y ago

>I think him being original, not "focusing on the core product", and a strong character had something to do with it, so of course it happens. You absolutely have people who are very competent but just not interested in what management (rightly or wrongly) thinks should be the current priorities. Sometimes things advance to the point where there's no longer a good fit. Not necessarily anyone's fault but it may be time to part ways.

yosefk 2y ago

Sounds great! Care to share the places you've seen this at?