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Personally, I think the issue isn't one of degrees or qualifications, but rather one of values. The CEO prior to this one (Muilenburg) also had degrees in Aero

Personally, I think the issue isn't one of degrees or qualifications, but rather one of values. The CEO prior to this one (Muilenburg) also had degrees in Aerospace Engineering, but chose to value profit maximization over things like security and a good engineering culture. Innocent people had to pay the price for it.

colinng 2y ago
Are we reading the same sources? The ex-CEO, David Calhoun, has a degree in accounting. https://www.boeing.com/company/bios/david-l-calhoun https://www.boeing.com/company/bios/david-l-calhoun > Calhoun has a bachelor’s degree in accounting from Virginia Tech.
- Andoryuuta 2y ago
  The former CEO does (Dennis Muilenburg), but not David Calhoun.
- IshanMi 2y ago
  You're right about Calhoun- I was actually referring to Dennis Muilenburg, the CEO who was fired in 2019 after the two 737 MAX crashes and the subsequent groundings. My comment wasn't clear enough- I'll edit it for clarity.
  - ibeckermayer 2y ago
    The financialization of management at Boeing has been an issue since well before 2019. See: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=213075 https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=213075
- elygre 2y ago
  David Calhoun is the current CEO until the end of the year.
- p_l 2y ago
  The CEOs that triggered various financialization moves were engineers by background, too
  - throwaway81523 2y ago
    They had previously worked under "Neutron" Jack Welch, who had a PhD in chemical engineering. What a wide trail of destruction that guy left.
  - throw0101c 2y ago
    > The CEOs that triggered various financialization moves were engineers by background, too They were engineers by degree. When was the last time they looked at a CFD or FEA model? I have an EE degree, but haven't looked at antenna or power systems design in many moons: I have no background in them (working sysadmin stuff).
    - cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
      What are you proposing then? The CEO not do…CEO stuff? This is a common no true Scotsman argument on HN, where ‘real engineers’ are treated as some sort of shorthand for “someone that has the same values that I do”.
      - llamaimperative 2y ago
        The only meaningful proposal is to fundamentally rethink the culture that’s eaten American companies since the 80s. The fundamental issue is fiduciary duty getting warped by people like Milton Friedman into the modern meme that executives are legally obligated to maximize shareholder profits (effectively always in the short term). Boeing is just the next of many, many cases of companies being destroyed by capitalism run rampant.
      - throw1234651234 2y ago
        I think he is proposing that tech company CEOs have some hands-on engineering experience at least for a short while. I agree with that - "MBA only" bosses really have no idea what it's like to be on the ground. I can't even emphasize how true this is, "no idea whatsoever" is a huge understatement. I thought they were faking to be lazy at first, but they really don't understand that some people need to actually do the work and what goes into it. And I say that as an MBA/CFA before engineering.
- cryptos 2y ago
  Isn't accounting "finance engineering"? :-)
  - TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
    And cleaning staff are actually floor engineers. Everything is engineering if you are imaginative enough.
    - ant6n 2y ago
      Nah, cleaning staff are hygiene technicians.
      - jraph 2y ago
        Well, in English, "engineer" does seem to also mean technical worker (what we call "technicien" in French), in addition to "ingénieur".
    - guappa 2y ago
      In my country to be an engineer I have to have a university degree of a certain kind, then do a state exam for the national engineering association, then pay a yearly fee to remain an engineer. I'm a bit discontent how just about anyone of my coworkers in USA can be a whatever engineer :D
      - willcipriano 2y ago
        In America we look at the ideas someone has rather than what degree or membership they may have purchased.[0] [0]https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2017/04/beaverton_man_claims_oregon_st.html https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2017/04/beaverton_man_cl...
        guappa 2y ago
        That's why salesmen whose only job is to promise literally whatever to customers are called "sales engineers"… because of their superior ideas -_-' Studying and learning and taking exams? Nah… that's boring. I'm going to point out that you have this exact system for lawyers and doctors… you can't just have ideas and be a lawyer or a doctor.
_giorgio_ 2y ago
Clearly you don't have a degree in engineering. If you had one, you would know how much you need to suffer to explain to non technical people why a development direction is better than another, and how much it will profit the company in the end.
- arkey 2y ago
  That's the whole point. That's precisely why you need managers with backgrounds in engineering in a business based on engineering.
  - dagw 2y ago
    The whole point is that the previous CEO and the one that arguably kicked off this whole mess did in fact have both a degree and background in engineering. Your mindset and business philosophy matters far more than your degree.
    - guappa 2y ago
      pecunia non olet…
    - rurban 2y ago
      No, the whole mess was created by the old McDonald managers in the old merger. Muilenburg inherited the MAX from McNerney, but you can easily blame his predecessor Stonecipher for all that Boeing mess, when they moved to Chicago and outsourced everything.
      - plorg 2y ago
        Again, you can push the blame back and back and back in time, but putting an engineer at the helm doesn't seem to have righted the ship either. Then it's not clear why such a background is necessary or sufficient for the successor in that position. Arguably the more important criteria may be that a candidate be from outside the Boeing organization, thus making them better suited to see beyond the existing structure and culture.
mlrtime 2y ago
I personally don't see a big reason why the CEO of Boeing needs a Engineering degree. This seems to me to be a scapegoat, there are plenty of bad CEOs with Engineering degrees. I'd argue that the COO or another position needs to have this qualification and have the power to bring up these risks to the CEO/Board. Someone needs to understanding engineering, be close to the ground but also have the power to bring things up to the CEO to make appropriate decisions.

colinng 2y ago

Are we reading the same sources? The ex-CEO, David Calhoun, has a degree in accounting. https://www.boeing.com/company/bios/david-l-calhoun https://www.boeing.com/company/bios/david-l-calhoun > Calhoun has a bachelor’s degree in accounting from Virginia Tech.

Andoryuuta 2y ago
The former CEO does (Dennis Muilenburg), but not David Calhoun.
IshanMi 2y ago
You're right about Calhoun- I was actually referring to Dennis Muilenburg, the CEO who was fired in 2019 after the two 737 MAX crashes and the subsequent groundings. My comment wasn't clear enough- I'll edit it for clarity.
- ibeckermayer 2y ago
  The financialization of management at Boeing has been an issue since well before 2019. See: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=213075 https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=213075
elygre 2y ago
David Calhoun is the current CEO until the end of the year.
p_l 2y ago
The CEOs that triggered various financialization moves were engineers by background, too
- throwaway81523 2y ago
  They had previously worked under "Neutron" Jack Welch, who had a PhD in chemical engineering. What a wide trail of destruction that guy left.
- throw0101c 2y ago
  > The CEOs that triggered various financialization moves were engineers by background, too They were engineers by degree. When was the last time they looked at a CFD or FEA model? I have an EE degree, but haven't looked at antenna or power systems design in many moons: I have no background in them (working sysadmin stuff).
  - cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
    What are you proposing then? The CEO not do…CEO stuff? This is a common no true Scotsman argument on HN, where ‘real engineers’ are treated as some sort of shorthand for “someone that has the same values that I do”.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      The only meaningful proposal is to fundamentally rethink the culture that’s eaten American companies since the 80s. The fundamental issue is fiduciary duty getting warped by people like Milton Friedman into the modern meme that executives are legally obligated to maximize shareholder profits (effectively always in the short term). Boeing is just the next of many, many cases of companies being destroyed by capitalism run rampant.
    - throw1234651234 2y ago
      I think he is proposing that tech company CEOs have some hands-on engineering experience at least for a short while. I agree with that - "MBA only" bosses really have no idea what it's like to be on the ground. I can't even emphasize how true this is, "no idea whatsoever" is a huge understatement. I thought they were faking to be lazy at first, but they really don't understand that some people need to actually do the work and what goes into it. And I say that as an MBA/CFA before engineering.
cryptos 2y ago
Isn't accounting "finance engineering"? :-)
- TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
  And cleaning staff are actually floor engineers. Everything is engineering if you are imaginative enough.
  - ant6n 2y ago
    Nah, cleaning staff are hygiene technicians.
    - jraph 2y ago
      Well, in English, "engineer" does seem to also mean technical worker (what we call "technicien" in French), in addition to "ingénieur".
  - guappa 2y ago
    In my country to be an engineer I have to have a university degree of a certain kind, then do a state exam for the national engineering association, then pay a yearly fee to remain an engineer. I'm a bit discontent how just about anyone of my coworkers in USA can be a whatever engineer :D
    - willcipriano 2y ago
      In America we look at the ideas someone has rather than what degree or membership they may have purchased.[0] [0]https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2017/04/beaverton_man_claims_oregon_st.html https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2017/04/beaverton_man_cl...
      - guappa 2y ago
        That's why salesmen whose only job is to promise literally whatever to customers are called "sales engineers"… because of their superior ideas -_-' Studying and learning and taking exams? Nah… that's boring. I'm going to point out that you have this exact system for lawyers and doctors… you can't just have ideas and be a lawyer or a doctor.

_giorgio_ 2y ago

Clearly you don't have a degree in engineering. If you had one, you would know how much you need to suffer to explain to non technical people why a development direction is better than another, and how much it will profit the company in the end.

arkey 2y ago
That's the whole point. That's precisely why you need managers with backgrounds in engineering in a business based on engineering.
- dagw 2y ago
  The whole point is that the previous CEO and the one that arguably kicked off this whole mess did in fact have both a degree and background in engineering. Your mindset and business philosophy matters far more than your degree.
  - guappa 2y ago
    pecunia non olet…
  - rurban 2y ago
    No, the whole mess was created by the old McDonald managers in the old merger. Muilenburg inherited the MAX from McNerney, but you can easily blame his predecessor Stonecipher for all that Boeing mess, when they moved to Chicago and outsourced everything.
    - plorg 2y ago
      Again, you can push the blame back and back and back in time, but putting an engineer at the helm doesn't seem to have righted the ship either. Then it's not clear why such a background is necessary or sufficient for the successor in that position. Arguably the more important criteria may be that a candidate be from outside the Boeing organization, thus making them better suited to see beyond the existing structure and culture.

mlrtime 2y ago

I personally don't see a big reason why the CEO of Boeing needs a Engineering degree. This seems to me to be a scapegoat, there are plenty of bad CEOs with Engineering degrees. I'd argue that the COO or another position needs to have this qualification and have the power to bring up these risks to the CEO/Board. Someone needs to understanding engineering, be close to the ground but also have the power to bring things up to the CEO to make appropriate decisions.