11 ms·

I dont understand. If China does not allow foreign internet companies to operate on its soil, why should India or US or any western country allow chinese intern

by bhoops 2y ago

I dont understand. If China does not allow foreign internet companies to operate on its soil, why should India or US or any western country allow chinese internet companies to operate within their jurisdiction ?

perihelions 2y ago
China blocks the world-wide internet because it follows a totalitarian ideology. The US has a free and open internet because we're a liberal democracy.
- nindalf 2y ago
  Don’t know why it’s so difficult for some people to understand the paradox of tolerance. Allowing your media to be controlled by a foreign totalitarian adversary is a quick way to having your institutions and society undermined by them.
  - perihelions 2y ago
    That is the standard argument for totalitarianism: safety and stability of society, at the expense of freedom. The US is doing something different.
    - RandomLensman 2y ago
      Did the USSR have radio and TV stations in the US during the cold war? During WWII the US had a censorship operation - was that totalitarian?
      - defrost 2y ago
        Interestingly, this very question was asked and addressed here on HN 32 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39428141 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39428141
        RandomLensman 2y ago
        Yes, by me - thank you for looping that discussion back in. It was meant to be rhetorical now - as the USSR did not have TV or radio stations in the US (but, yes, you could get USSR newspapers). Differentiating between different "attack vectors" isn't new.
      - ecronant 2y ago
        [dead]
  - Jaxkr 2y ago
    Censoring foreign speech is also a slide towards totalitarianism... Imagine if the U.S. banned a Chinese book series because we were concerned it would "undermine our institutions and society". Does that sound like a free country?
    - cylemons 2y ago
      The problem here is that Tiktok is not merely "promoting totalitarianism", it is actively spying on it's users and sending their data to the Chinese government. Don't you think this warrants a ban?
      - defrost 2y ago
        Sure, certainly, if it's also the case that all the US apps that are actively spying on their users and selling that data to the US three letter agencies also warrant banning. From recent reports that's apparently most, if not all, of them. As a quick follow up query, can Chinese, UK, Australian, etc. companies buy up data on US citizens from brokers? Is that OK, it's probably for business reasons after all .. or friendly five eyes cross border mutual spying to take the stink off.
        cylemons 2y ago
        You have to look at it from a national security perspective rather than a moral one. A foreign adversary spying on your citizens is terrible. The only reason most countries dont ban US apps is either they are already friendly with the US or incapable of developing a local alternative.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- hayst4ck 2y ago
  > we're a liberal democracy. Liberal democracy is not something you are, it is something you do. It is the sum set of beliefs, actions, and understandings of the country that results in the state of its governance. Freedom is not an inevitable result of "being" a democracy. Freedom is an aggregate result of the way individuals act. > China blocks the world-wide internet because it follows a totalitarian ideology. What you might not have considered is that if a foreign power is able to influence your fellow citizens, those fellow citizens might be weaponized against you. Before America was a republic it was part of a monarchy and individual citizens became convinced it was worth fighting to change. That was a good change, but citizens might just as easily be convinced that maybe fast results and less bureaucracy and rules are what we need and it's worth putting a strongman into power for faster results: https://snyder.substack.com/p/the-strongman-fantasy https://snyder.substack.com/p/the-strongman-fantasy Freedom is also the freedom to be ignorant. What happens if too many people are ignorant? Freedom is also the freedom to do the wrong thing. What happens if too many people do the wrong thing? Freedom is not a pure concept synonymous with "good." Freedom can bend, but it can also break.
Jaxkr 2y ago
Because the U.S. is not a country that censors its internet. Free access to the entire internet is a right Americans have always enjoyed. In my opinion, banning foreign websites/apps is just as bad as banning foreign literature.
- YetAnotherNick 2y ago
  Tiktok is not censored in India as well. They just show that it is not available in your country due to government order. Even without blocking, countries could ask to seize operation and block them from accepting payment effectively killing it.
  - devnonymous 2y ago
    Ehe who is the 'They' in your statement?
    - YetAnotherNick 2y ago
      Tiktok.
      - devnonymous 2y ago
        Ah ok, so TikTok has voluntarily disabled across to Indian users due to a government order which is not a ban. Interesting.
- mlindner 2y ago
  We're not in the era of "the internet" anymore. It's a bunch of firewalled devolved internets that are entirely within a single corporation. For example if the US banned access to all Chinese websites I think that would be bad. However explicitly banning major Chinese companies from selling directly to US consumers with an intention to mislead them I think is beneficial. Just pass a law of automatic recipricol action for any country. If any country bans "X category" then ban anything coming FROM that country with the same category. If China wants tiktok to operate in the US then they must allow twitter, facebook, and all of the other applications to operate within China. That's the entire point of globalism. It's not a one way street.
devnonymous 2y ago
Perhaps because most countries do not want to be like China ? You can apply your reasoning to almost any Chinese policy internal or external but that doesn't justify the policy.
cageface 2y ago
I’m confused too why this issue needs to be any more complicated than this. Are there any other product categories where allow imports from a country that completely bans our exports?
slowmovintarget 2y ago
Especially when TikTok is a known propaganda vector for China. China has weaponized TikTok in the West and it's past time to respond to what is actually a threat. There's a reason the TikTok equivalent in China is tightly controlled by the government and looks more like PBS than the cesspool foisted on the rest of the world.

by bhoops 2y ago

perihelions 2y ago

China blocks the world-wide internet because it follows a totalitarian ideology. The US has a free and open internet because we're a liberal democracy.

nindalf 2y ago
Don’t know why it’s so difficult for some people to understand the paradox of tolerance. Allowing your media to be controlled by a foreign totalitarian adversary is a quick way to having your institutions and society undermined by them.
- perihelions 2y ago
  That is the standard argument for totalitarianism: safety and stability of society, at the expense of freedom. The US is doing something different.
  - RandomLensman 2y ago
    Did the USSR have radio and TV stations in the US during the cold war? During WWII the US had a censorship operation - was that totalitarian?
    - defrost 2y ago
      Interestingly, this very question was asked and addressed here on HN 32 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39428141 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39428141
      - RandomLensman 2y ago
        Yes, by me - thank you for looping that discussion back in. It was meant to be rhetorical now - as the USSR did not have TV or radio stations in the US (but, yes, you could get USSR newspapers). Differentiating between different "attack vectors" isn't new.
    - ecronant 2y ago
      [dead]
- Jaxkr 2y ago
  Censoring foreign speech is also a slide towards totalitarianism... Imagine if the U.S. banned a Chinese book series because we were concerned it would "undermine our institutions and society". Does that sound like a free country?
  - cylemons 2y ago
    The problem here is that Tiktok is not merely "promoting totalitarianism", it is actively spying on it's users and sending their data to the Chinese government. Don't you think this warrants a ban?
    - defrost 2y ago
      Sure, certainly, if it's also the case that all the US apps that are actively spying on their users and selling that data to the US three letter agencies also warrant banning. From recent reports that's apparently most, if not all, of them. As a quick follow up query, can Chinese, UK, Australian, etc. companies buy up data on US citizens from brokers? Is that OK, it's probably for business reasons after all .. or friendly five eyes cross border mutual spying to take the stink off.
      - cylemons 2y ago
        You have to look at it from a national security perspective rather than a moral one. A foreign adversary spying on your citizens is terrible. The only reason most countries dont ban US apps is either they are already friendly with the US or incapable of developing a local alternative.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
hayst4ck 2y ago
> we're a liberal democracy. Liberal democracy is not something you are, it is something you do. It is the sum set of beliefs, actions, and understandings of the country that results in the state of its governance. Freedom is not an inevitable result of "being" a democracy. Freedom is an aggregate result of the way individuals act. > China blocks the world-wide internet because it follows a totalitarian ideology. What you might not have considered is that if a foreign power is able to influence your fellow citizens, those fellow citizens might be weaponized against you. Before America was a republic it was part of a monarchy and individual citizens became convinced it was worth fighting to change. That was a good change, but citizens might just as easily be convinced that maybe fast results and less bureaucracy and rules are what we need and it's worth putting a strongman into power for faster results: https://snyder.substack.com/p/the-strongman-fantasy https://snyder.substack.com/p/the-strongman-fantasy Freedom is also the freedom to be ignorant. What happens if too many people are ignorant? Freedom is also the freedom to do the wrong thing. What happens if too many people do the wrong thing? Freedom is not a pure concept synonymous with "good." Freedom can bend, but it can also break.

Jaxkr 2y ago

Because the U.S. is not a country that censors its internet. Free access to the entire internet is a right Americans have always enjoyed. In my opinion, banning foreign websites/apps is just as bad as banning foreign literature.

YetAnotherNick 2y ago
Tiktok is not censored in India as well. They just show that it is not available in your country due to government order. Even without blocking, countries could ask to seize operation and block them from accepting payment effectively killing it.
- devnonymous 2y ago
  Ehe who is the 'They' in your statement?
  - YetAnotherNick 2y ago
    Tiktok.
    - devnonymous 2y ago
      Ah ok, so TikTok has voluntarily disabled across to Indian users due to a government order which is not a ban. Interesting.
mlindner 2y ago
We're not in the era of "the internet" anymore. It's a bunch of firewalled devolved internets that are entirely within a single corporation. For example if the US banned access to all Chinese websites I think that would be bad. However explicitly banning major Chinese companies from selling directly to US consumers with an intention to mislead them I think is beneficial. Just pass a law of automatic recipricol action for any country. If any country bans "X category" then ban anything coming FROM that country with the same category. If China wants tiktok to operate in the US then they must allow twitter, facebook, and all of the other applications to operate within China. That's the entire point of globalism. It's not a one way street.

devnonymous 2y ago

Perhaps because most countries do not want to be like China ? You can apply your reasoning to almost any Chinese policy internal or external but that doesn't justify the policy.

cageface 2y ago

I’m confused too why this issue needs to be any more complicated than this. Are there any other product categories where allow imports from a country that completely bans our exports?

slowmovintarget 2y ago

Especially when TikTok is a known propaganda vector for China. China has weaponized TikTok in the West and it's past time to respond to what is actually a threat. There's a reason the TikTok equivalent in China is tightly controlled by the government and looks more like PBS than the cesspool foisted on the rest of the world.