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Regarding the Apple Wallet: what about it is uncompetitive? I can add credit cards from many providers to it, and as far as I can tell Apple doesn't get anythin

Regarding the Apple Wallet: what about it is uncompetitive? I can add credit cards from many providers to it, and as far as I can tell Apple doesn't get anything if I add my Chase card and use it with Apple Pay. I don't think banks have to pay Apple anything for their cards to be used in the Apple wallet. Nor do non-financial cards like memberships.

padthai 2y ago
They get 0.15% of the transaction from the card issuer. And they do not allow card issuers to use the hardware on their own.
- davidham 2y ago
  That seems...fair to me? Apple makes a phone a lot of people want to buy, and adds NFC to it to enable mobile payment, and they provide security guarantees for the end user and the card issuer alike. I don't know why they should be obligated to provide this functionality to the card issuers for free.
  - gmm1990 2y ago
    You could also frame it as they sold you an NFC capable phone and not really providing NFC functionality, which doesn't seem fair or at least deceptive.
  - Topfi 2y ago
    Sure, but on my Android smartphone, my bank still has the ability to implement their own payment solution using NFC directly using their app, which is something they did and offer as an alternative next to Google Pay. It even has certain advantages, such as allowing one to unlock a banks doors outside regular hours to access the self-service area for things that are beyond regular ATMs, something that currently does not work with Google or Apple Pay. On iOS, my bank does not get to offer that ability, and I do not get that choice. If I owned an iPhone and wanted to do something like deposit some cash, pickup or ship a package via the postal service (as our postal service has the same security measures) outside business hours without a physical credit or debit card, I'd be out of luck, because of Apple's restrictive nature. Having talked to a few of my friends and family, a lot of Apple Pay users are surprised and/or unaware that this is even an option they could have, and I am certain that at some point, Apple will implement something similar, whereupon Google Pay will also enable such functionality, cause the industry does follow Apple to a large extent when it comes to what is considered the minimum of neceessary features one has to offer. But until then, I see this as restricting innovation, similar to how AT&T prevented a lot of developments, and we got the internet in its current state in part thanks to antitrust action against them, which they promised, we'd regret in a similar manner to Apple today.
    - danielmarkbruce 2y ago
      Is there any upside to consumers to this restriction?
      - pbourke 2y ago
        Security. I'm quite happy as an iPhone user to have Apple be the only ones in the loop for NFC payments. I'm generally happy with all other restrictions mentioned in the suit (no 3rd party app stores, no super apps, etc). It seems that this suit is brought on behalf of other companies (device and app makers, etc) and has a tenuous benefit to the public. There is a fair alternative available in Android for those who don't want to be in the iOS ecosystem. FWIW I use Linux on my desktop computer, believe in open source, etc. Since mobile phones have become much more than phones and are now a sort of master key to your entire life, I am happy to have that key reside in as high a trust environment as I can find.
        kalleboo 2y ago
        > I'm quite happy as an iPhone user to have Apple be the only ones in the loop for NFC payments You don't think your bank is in the loop on payments you make with your bank's card???
        pbourke 2y ago
        In the loop for the NFC part. One's bank is, rather obviously, involved in the transaction.
        danielmarkbruce 2y ago
        Sorry, that was a joke. I should have lathered on more obvious sarcasm. The DOJ don't understand very basic computer security. It's disgraceful. Agree with everything you say here - the antitrust regulators seem to have forgotten who they are supposed to be protecting - consumers, not apple competitors.
        2y ago
  - spywaregorilla 2y ago
    Because apple sold the phones. It's not their phones anymore. It's the consumers' phones.
  - freeAgent 2y ago
    Because I bought my phone and should be able to use it how I like.
- davidham 2y ago
  (Thank you for the reply by the way, I didn't know that about the 0.15%!)
- samatman 2y ago
  Visa and Mastercard both charge a fee for operating a payment network. Apple does as well.
  - padthai 2y ago
    Nobody cares about them operating payment network. They care about them blocking other companies to do so.
mcfedr 2y ago
You try and make an app that competes with Apple wallet. You will very quickly find you can never have access to the NFC hardware. And you could not trigger your app when required.
- alex_suzuki 2y ago
  I worked as a contractor for a company offering a mobile payment solution in central europe. They were able to negotiate, with some weighty backing, an app entitlement that prevents Apple Pay from popping up when the phone is held close to an NFC-enabled payment terminal while the app is open. Just saying that there are ways, but they‘re not open to everyone.
  - jskrn 2y ago
    weighty backing?
    - alex_suzuki 2y ago
      Investors with high-powered legal teams.
sf_rob 2y ago
I find it somewhat entertaining that the press conference, and to a lesser extent the brief, argues that giving 3rd party dev access to Wallet functionality would result in a more security for the user. I don't always trust monoliths (might be the wrong word?) but I trust Apple Wallet integrations more than anything my bank would try to roll out. I'm fine with the claim of more competition and more privacy (although I'm not particularly worried about Apple here).

padthai 2y ago

They get 0.15% of the transaction from the card issuer. And they do not allow card issuers to use the hardware on their own.

davidham 2y ago
That seems...fair to me? Apple makes a phone a lot of people want to buy, and adds NFC to it to enable mobile payment, and they provide security guarantees for the end user and the card issuer alike. I don't know why they should be obligated to provide this functionality to the card issuers for free.
- gmm1990 2y ago
  You could also frame it as they sold you an NFC capable phone and not really providing NFC functionality, which doesn't seem fair or at least deceptive.
- Topfi 2y ago
  Sure, but on my Android smartphone, my bank still has the ability to implement their own payment solution using NFC directly using their app, which is something they did and offer as an alternative next to Google Pay. It even has certain advantages, such as allowing one to unlock a banks doors outside regular hours to access the self-service area for things that are beyond regular ATMs, something that currently does not work with Google or Apple Pay. On iOS, my bank does not get to offer that ability, and I do not get that choice. If I owned an iPhone and wanted to do something like deposit some cash, pickup or ship a package via the postal service (as our postal service has the same security measures) outside business hours without a physical credit or debit card, I'd be out of luck, because of Apple's restrictive nature. Having talked to a few of my friends and family, a lot of Apple Pay users are surprised and/or unaware that this is even an option they could have, and I am certain that at some point, Apple will implement something similar, whereupon Google Pay will also enable such functionality, cause the industry does follow Apple to a large extent when it comes to what is considered the minimum of neceessary features one has to offer. But until then, I see this as restricting innovation, similar to how AT&T prevented a lot of developments, and we got the internet in its current state in part thanks to antitrust action against them, which they promised, we'd regret in a similar manner to Apple today.
  - danielmarkbruce 2y ago
    Is there any upside to consumers to this restriction?
    - pbourke 2y ago
      Security. I'm quite happy as an iPhone user to have Apple be the only ones in the loop for NFC payments. I'm generally happy with all other restrictions mentioned in the suit (no 3rd party app stores, no super apps, etc). It seems that this suit is brought on behalf of other companies (device and app makers, etc) and has a tenuous benefit to the public. There is a fair alternative available in Android for those who don't want to be in the iOS ecosystem. FWIW I use Linux on my desktop computer, believe in open source, etc. Since mobile phones have become much more than phones and are now a sort of master key to your entire life, I am happy to have that key reside in as high a trust environment as I can find.
      - kalleboo 2y ago
        > I'm quite happy as an iPhone user to have Apple be the only ones in the loop for NFC payments You don't think your bank is in the loop on payments you make with your bank's card???
        pbourke 2y ago
        In the loop for the NFC part. One's bank is, rather obviously, involved in the transaction.
      - danielmarkbruce 2y ago
        Sorry, that was a joke. I should have lathered on more obvious sarcasm. The DOJ don't understand very basic computer security. It's disgraceful. Agree with everything you say here - the antitrust regulators seem to have forgotten who they are supposed to be protecting - consumers, not apple competitors.
        2y ago
- spywaregorilla 2y ago
  Because apple sold the phones. It's not their phones anymore. It's the consumers' phones.
- freeAgent 2y ago
  Because I bought my phone and should be able to use it how I like.
davidham 2y ago
(Thank you for the reply by the way, I didn't know that about the 0.15%!)
samatman 2y ago
Visa and Mastercard both charge a fee for operating a payment network. Apple does as well.
- padthai 2y ago
  Nobody cares about them operating payment network. They care about them blocking other companies to do so.

mcfedr 2y ago

You try and make an app that competes with Apple wallet. You will very quickly find you can never have access to the NFC hardware. And you could not trigger your app when required.

alex_suzuki 2y ago
I worked as a contractor for a company offering a mobile payment solution in central europe. They were able to negotiate, with some weighty backing, an app entitlement that prevents Apple Pay from popping up when the phone is held close to an NFC-enabled payment terminal while the app is open. Just saying that there are ways, but they‘re not open to everyone.
- jskrn 2y ago
  weighty backing?
  - alex_suzuki 2y ago
    Investors with high-powered legal teams.

sf_rob 2y ago

I find it somewhat entertaining that the press conference, and to a lesser extent the brief, argues that giving 3rd party dev access to Wallet functionality would result in a more security for the user. I don't always trust monoliths (might be the wrong word?) but I trust Apple Wallet integrations more than anything my bank would try to roll out. I'm fine with the claim of more competition and more privacy (although I'm not particularly worried about Apple here).