6 ms·

How could he be 'very rational' and also 'threaten people to become his friends'?

lebean 3y ago
Well, don't you see? He simply had too much rationality. When you have rationality up the wazoo, coming out the ears, you just start manipulating people!
badcppdev 3y ago
Hypothetically if this was rephrased as "he was very rational and threatened other children to play with him and treat him like a friend" does that make sense to you?
- pi-e-sigma 3y ago
  Not really to be honest. Rational person would know that you can't force someone to like you. Forcing 'friendship' looks more like something an autistic would do.
  - toss1 3y ago
    >>Rational person would know that you can't force someone to like you. True, but TBF, it takes experience to realize that, and the psychopathy kind of hinders getting that experience? (Reading could also help, but not in the same way)
  - mock-possum 3y ago
    I think you misread the comment you’re replying to - > he was very rational and threatened other children to play with him and treat him like a friend My emphasis. He’s not forcing people like him, because you’re right, you can’t force that, he’s coercing people into acting like they like him. The point is that since he (supposedly) can’t feel the feeling himself, or can’t understand it, all he has to go off of is what he observes - i.e. the behavior - and you can absolutely force a behavior.
    - pi-e-sigma 3y ago
      No matter how you try to explain it, trying to force other kids to play with you is not a rational behavior. Rational behavior would be trying to find out why they don't want to play with you and try to do something about it. Would you say that if a girl doesn't want to date you then forcing her to date you is a rational behavior?
      - mock-possum 3y ago
        Personally? No. But if I was a kid who didn't understand that stuff? Totally. I mean come on, there are plenty of adults who think that that's a perfectly rational approach to getting what they want.
        pi-e-sigma 3y ago
        You wouldn't force a girl to date you because you know it's not rational. You wouldn't force kids to play with you because it's not rational either. Simple as that. Just because somebody thinks it is actually rational doesn't make it so. The kid wasn't rational at all, if anything his behavior was completely irrational
        adammarples 3y ago
        Yeah we wouldn't, because we have empathy and understand other people. If you can't conceive that people can even like each other at all then all their behavior just looks like some complex status game to you. There's nothing irrational then, with your limited understanding, about coercing a behaviour that you want, any more than it would be irrational to force an exchange in chess because the Knight didn't "want to" move.
        badcppdev 3y ago
        There's some irony here of trying to force another HN user to understand that rationality depends on your base understanding of how the world works.
coldtea 3y ago
By going about it on a very analytical and methodical and rational way. Rationality is about the mechanism, not some particular moral or value content. You might be asking "but if he was rational, couldn't he see that blackmailing is incompatible with friendship?". Well, if he wanted the trappings of friendship (having a friend group, playmates, hanging out and so on), and not some "genuine bonding", it's not that incompatible.
- pi-e-sigma 3y ago
  > By going about it on a very analytical and methodical and rational way. If the kid was so calculating he would have to ask himself what exactly could he do to force other kids to hand out with him? And he would understand that he has no power of coercion. So he wasn't rational at all, it was just hopeless 'last ditch effort'
  - coldtea 3y ago
    >And he would understand that he has no power of coercion. You'd be surprised. Some get friends literally by being bullies. Others then want to be their friend to avoid being their target.
Spooky23 3y ago
People who don't feel want to have what they observe, but don't understand it. So they develop their own reasons. Normal people get an emotional reward from human contact. Something similar is common in victims of trauma as well. The trope is the woman with "daddy issues", which are more complex, who try to fill a void they have with sexual relationships. Instead of seeking an absent male relationship, they manipulate to get a "friendship", and are often very skilled at meticulously building this friendship, without the emotional connection that governs our behavior. They are seeking a means to an end - which may include just feeling something. I had an acquaintance like this, who became a very scary individual as he became an older teen. I cut him out completely at 13 when I suspected he harmed a neighbor's cat. As the author of the article stated, it doesn't make her evil. But she is dangerous, as her motivations are different her behavior is probably governed more by her executive control part of the brain, which is high labor and highly rational. "Rational" sounds great to engineers, but people make very disturbing rational decisions when they build a system of unusual assumptions.
- pnutjam 3y ago
  Bingo, you can't be "rational" when you don't understand any of the existing rational reasons people do things.

Well, don't you see? He simply had too much rationality. When you have rationality up the wazoo, coming out the ears, you just start manipulating people!

badcppdev 3y ago

Hypothetically if this was rephrased as "he was very rational and threatened other children to play with him and treat him like a friend" does that make sense to you?

pi-e-sigma 3y ago
Not really to be honest. Rational person would know that you can't force someone to like you. Forcing 'friendship' looks more like something an autistic would do.
- toss1 3y ago
  >>Rational person would know that you can't force someone to like you. True, but TBF, it takes experience to realize that, and the psychopathy kind of hinders getting that experience? (Reading could also help, but not in the same way)
- mock-possum 3y ago
  I think you misread the comment you’re replying to - > he was very rational and threatened other children to play with him and treat him like a friend My emphasis. He’s not forcing people like him, because you’re right, you can’t force that, he’s coercing people into acting like they like him. The point is that since he (supposedly) can’t feel the feeling himself, or can’t understand it, all he has to go off of is what he observes - i.e. the behavior - and you can absolutely force a behavior.
  - pi-e-sigma 3y ago
    No matter how you try to explain it, trying to force other kids to play with you is not a rational behavior. Rational behavior would be trying to find out why they don't want to play with you and try to do something about it. Would you say that if a girl doesn't want to date you then forcing her to date you is a rational behavior?
    - mock-possum 3y ago
      Personally? No. But if I was a kid who didn't understand that stuff? Totally. I mean come on, there are plenty of adults who think that that's a perfectly rational approach to getting what they want.
      - pi-e-sigma 3y ago
        You wouldn't force a girl to date you because you know it's not rational. You wouldn't force kids to play with you because it's not rational either. Simple as that. Just because somebody thinks it is actually rational doesn't make it so. The kid wasn't rational at all, if anything his behavior was completely irrational
        adammarples 3y ago
        Yeah we wouldn't, because we have empathy and understand other people. If you can't conceive that people can even like each other at all then all their behavior just looks like some complex status game to you. There's nothing irrational then, with your limited understanding, about coercing a behaviour that you want, any more than it would be irrational to force an exchange in chess because the Knight didn't "want to" move.
        badcppdev 3y ago
        There's some irony here of trying to force another HN user to understand that rationality depends on your base understanding of how the world works.

coldtea 3y ago

By going about it on a very analytical and methodical and rational way. Rationality is about the mechanism, not some particular moral or value content. You might be asking "but if he was rational, couldn't he see that blackmailing is incompatible with friendship?". Well, if he wanted the trappings of friendship (having a friend group, playmates, hanging out and so on), and not some "genuine bonding", it's not that incompatible.

pi-e-sigma 3y ago
> By going about it on a very analytical and methodical and rational way. If the kid was so calculating he would have to ask himself what exactly could he do to force other kids to hand out with him? And he would understand that he has no power of coercion. So he wasn't rational at all, it was just hopeless 'last ditch effort'
- coldtea 3y ago
  >And he would understand that he has no power of coercion. You'd be surprised. Some get friends literally by being bullies. Others then want to be their friend to avoid being their target.

Spooky23 3y ago

People who don't feel want to have what they observe, but don't understand it. So they develop their own reasons. Normal people get an emotional reward from human contact. Something similar is common in victims of trauma as well. The trope is the woman with "daddy issues", which are more complex, who try to fill a void they have with sexual relationships. Instead of seeking an absent male relationship, they manipulate to get a "friendship", and are often very skilled at meticulously building this friendship, without the emotional connection that governs our behavior. They are seeking a means to an end - which may include just feeling something. I had an acquaintance like this, who became a very scary individual as he became an older teen. I cut him out completely at 13 when I suspected he harmed a neighbor's cat. As the author of the article stated, it doesn't make her evil. But she is dangerous, as her motivations are different her behavior is probably governed more by her executive control part of the brain, which is high labor and highly rational. "Rational" sounds great to engineers, but people make very disturbing rational decisions when they build a system of unusual assumptions.

pnutjam 3y ago
Bingo, you can't be "rational" when you don't understand any of the existing rational reasons people do things.