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What's your point? China literally has a nationwide firewall to prevent Western ideas from entering the minds of its subjects. Why should we throw open our digi

What's your point? China literally has a nationwide firewall to prevent Western ideas from entering the minds of its subjects. Why should we throw open our digital borders to Chinese influence campaigns? "The supreme art of war is to defeat the enemy without fighting", e.g. to undermine Americans' faith in our democratic institutions, to gain the ability to compromise our critical infrastructure, and to influence our politics. All explicitly stated goals of both Bejing and the Kremlin, and the misinformation and distraction campaigns carried out by Russia in the last presidential election are about to ratchet up again. I don't believe we should be making these objectives any easier for our ideological rivals.

cherryteastain 3y ago
The point is that the West painted itself as the defender of freedom, democracy and free markets. Going beyond, it claimed that (in the post Reagan/Thatcher era) that free markets are a prerequisite for being a rich country. Yet, the moment free markets became inconvenient, the west dropped that narrative and went full protectionist. As a result, China gets a propaganda victory in the eyes of non-Western nations. All things considered, it's a minor problem for the US/West. Just looking like hypocrites. Compared to, say, the 2003 Iraq war it's a nothingburger.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > looking like hypocrites This is the paradox of tolerance [1]. It’s a worn discussion and far from hypocritical. In any case, I’d rather be right than consistent. Particularly when it comes to the survival and wellbeing of our people and allies. More pointedly when the other side is a dictatorship. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
  - cherryteastain 3y ago
    That's the exact argument e.g. Turkey used to ban Wikipedia/Youtube/Twitter etc. Make of that what you will.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > the exact argument e.g. Turkey used to ban Wikipedia/Youtube/Twitter etc. Which one(s)? (Genuinely curious.) Also, was it a ban or divestment requirement? What wins me over on this bill is it isn’t a ban. It isn’t even a requirement to be controlled by an American. ByteDance could sell TikTok to a Korean or Hugarian or Middle Eastern country—even Turkey—and be in compliance with the law.
      - cherryteastain 3y ago
        This one: > I’d rather be right than consistent. Particularly when it comes to the survival and wellbeing of our people Turkey's constitution also guarantees free speech etc. However, there are also laws that say you cannot insult people's religious sensibilities or serve sexually explicit content. The motivation for these laws is that this type of content degrades the moral fabric of society. Politicians whipped up moral panics and judges (who were in many cases appointed by those very same politicians) issued rulings requiring these platforms to remove the offending content. The platforms refused, and were banned. When people argued the bans were against constitutional freedoms, the counter-arguments were always some flavor of "it's more important to prevent the moral degeneration of the country".
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > When people argued the bans were against constitutional freedoms, the counter-arguments were always some flavor of "it's more important to prevent the moral degeneration of the country" When the facts change our opinions should, too. I used to be a free-trade absolutist. It’s become clear that doesn’t work. I remain a strong free-speech advocate. Which is why I was against Trump’s proposed TikTok ban. This, however, is different. There is an out in divestment—to an American or non-American. And even if ByteDance refuses to sell, TikTok.com won’t be blocked. Moreover, the entire process is subject to judicial oversight. If ByteDance’s Constitutional rights are being abrogated, they have a forum in which to find relief. Turkey’s tale is cautionary. We should be mindful when we find we were previously wrong. But I think this is different. Free trade (in its absolute sense) isn’t a core American value. Free speech is. The First Amendment protects ByteDance’s speech. It does not guarantee its distribution.
  - simpletone 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > What are your reddit usernames? I thought I wasn’t American enough for your liking [1][2] but also worked for the government [3]. (Is it a foreign one? Out of curiosity, which?) Now I work…on Reddit? [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39685747 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39685747 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39692339 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39692339 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39692709 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39692709
      - simpletone 3y ago
        [flagged]
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        [flagged]
- TulliusCicero 3y ago
  It's not hypocrisy to expect free trade to go both ways. China blocks many major Western websites and apps. Reciprocating is far from unfair: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_...
- WillPostForFood 3y ago
  West painted itself as the defender of freedom, democracy and free markets China is not free, not a democracy, and not a free market, so there no hypocrisy. What was crazy was supporting the one sided relationship where we export our industry and production capacity to China while they block and steal from our businesses. I'd support TikTok in the US if China gets rid of their firewall.
dauertewigkeit 3y ago
> Why should we throw open our digital borders to Chinese influence campaigns? Because we are not China and our institutions are built on presumption of freedom of speech and freedom of thought and democracy. If we start emulating China, we will become China. Our institutions are supposed to be robust enough to handle local and foreign propaganda and if they are not, then censorship is certainly not a solution that would be compatible with the liberal democratic values that we are supposed to hold.
- TulliusCicero 3y ago
  Free trade should go both ways. It's ridiculous to let Chinese apps and websites operate in the West when China blocks so many Western sites and apps: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_...
  - pokepim 3y ago
    [dead]
  - contrarian1234 3y ago
    The basic benefits of free trade (based on comparative advantage) do not require both parties to engage in it They make a superior dancing video app, so then engineers in silicon valley can go work on something else instead
    - TulliusCicero 3y ago
      The point is that they get to access the Western market with their dancing video app, but Westerners aren't allowed to access their market with the apps they make. That gives those Chinese companies an unfair advantage in potential market reach.
      - contrarian1234 3y ago
        And it turns out that that's irrelevant in terms of net benefit to the citizen of a country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage Resources are reallocated elsewhere
tzs 3y ago
> All explicitly stated goals of both Bejing and the Kremlin, and the misinformation and distraction campaigns carried out by Russia in the last presidential election are about to ratchet up again. I don't believe we should be making these objectives any easier for our ideological rivals. Those campaigns mostly took part on platforms owned and operated by US companies.
basisword 3y ago
>> China literally has a nationwide firewall to prevent Western ideas from entering the minds of its subjects. Why should we throw open our digital borders to Chinese influence campaigns? Emulating the policies of a country 'we' think 'is bad' isn't great policy. >> undermine Americans' faith in our democratic institutions It seems like Americans did a pretty good job of this themselves at the last election cycle. A highly politicised Supreme Court, a violent attack on the Capitol, a lot of people who don't accept or believe the election result. How much worse can TikTok make things?
- rusty_venture 3y ago
  >> Emulating the policies of a country 'we' think 'is bad' isn't great policy. The paradox of tolerance. >> A highly politicised Supreme Court, a violent attack on the Capitol, a lot of people who don't accept or believe the election result. 2 out of 3 of these were precipitated by foreign influence campaigns on social media actively undermining Americans' trust in our political institutions, so yeah, prohibiting foreign-owned social media networks in advance of the upcoming election is definitely a step in the right direction.
  - basisword 3y ago
    >> 2 out of 3 of these were precipitated by foreign influence campaigns on social media actively undermining Americans' trust in our political institutions Why is nothing being done about Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Truth Social, etc. etc? There are more users on Facebook alone.

cherryteastain 3y ago

The point is that the West painted itself as the defender of freedom, democracy and free markets. Going beyond, it claimed that (in the post Reagan/Thatcher era) that free markets are a prerequisite for being a rich country. Yet, the moment free markets became inconvenient, the west dropped that narrative and went full protectionist. As a result, China gets a propaganda victory in the eyes of non-Western nations. All things considered, it's a minor problem for the US/West. Just looking like hypocrites. Compared to, say, the 2003 Iraq war it's a nothingburger.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> looking like hypocrites This is the paradox of tolerance [1]. It’s a worn discussion and far from hypocritical. In any case, I’d rather be right than consistent. Particularly when it comes to the survival and wellbeing of our people and allies. More pointedly when the other side is a dictatorship. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
- cherryteastain 3y ago
  That's the exact argument e.g. Turkey used to ban Wikipedia/Youtube/Twitter etc. Make of that what you will.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > the exact argument e.g. Turkey used to ban Wikipedia/Youtube/Twitter etc. Which one(s)? (Genuinely curious.) Also, was it a ban or divestment requirement? What wins me over on this bill is it isn’t a ban. It isn’t even a requirement to be controlled by an American. ByteDance could sell TikTok to a Korean or Hugarian or Middle Eastern country—even Turkey—and be in compliance with the law.
    - cherryteastain 3y ago
      This one: > I’d rather be right than consistent. Particularly when it comes to the survival and wellbeing of our people Turkey's constitution also guarantees free speech etc. However, there are also laws that say you cannot insult people's religious sensibilities or serve sexually explicit content. The motivation for these laws is that this type of content degrades the moral fabric of society. Politicians whipped up moral panics and judges (who were in many cases appointed by those very same politicians) issued rulings requiring these platforms to remove the offending content. The platforms refused, and were banned. When people argued the bans were against constitutional freedoms, the counter-arguments were always some flavor of "it's more important to prevent the moral degeneration of the country".
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > When people argued the bans were against constitutional freedoms, the counter-arguments were always some flavor of "it's more important to prevent the moral degeneration of the country" When the facts change our opinions should, too. I used to be a free-trade absolutist. It’s become clear that doesn’t work. I remain a strong free-speech advocate. Which is why I was against Trump’s proposed TikTok ban. This, however, is different. There is an out in divestment—to an American or non-American. And even if ByteDance refuses to sell, TikTok.com won’t be blocked. Moreover, the entire process is subject to judicial oversight. If ByteDance’s Constitutional rights are being abrogated, they have a forum in which to find relief. Turkey’s tale is cautionary. We should be mindful when we find we were previously wrong. But I think this is different. Free trade (in its absolute sense) isn’t a core American value. Free speech is. The First Amendment protects ByteDance’s speech. It does not guarantee its distribution.
- simpletone 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > What are your reddit usernames? I thought I wasn’t American enough for your liking [1][2] but also worked for the government [3]. (Is it a foreign one? Out of curiosity, which?) Now I work…on Reddit? [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39685747 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39685747 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39692339 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39692339 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39692709 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39692709
    - simpletone 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        [flagged]
TulliusCicero 3y ago
It's not hypocrisy to expect free trade to go both ways. China blocks many major Western websites and apps. Reciprocating is far from unfair: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_...
WillPostForFood 3y ago
West painted itself as the defender of freedom, democracy and free markets China is not free, not a democracy, and not a free market, so there no hypocrisy. What was crazy was supporting the one sided relationship where we export our industry and production capacity to China while they block and steal from our businesses. I'd support TikTok in the US if China gets rid of their firewall.

dauertewigkeit 3y ago

> Why should we throw open our digital borders to Chinese influence campaigns? Because we are not China and our institutions are built on presumption of freedom of speech and freedom of thought and democracy. If we start emulating China, we will become China. Our institutions are supposed to be robust enough to handle local and foreign propaganda and if they are not, then censorship is certainly not a solution that would be compatible with the liberal democratic values that we are supposed to hold.

TulliusCicero 3y ago
Free trade should go both ways. It's ridiculous to let Chinese apps and websites operate in the West when China blocks so many Western sites and apps: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_...
- pokepim 3y ago
  [dead]
- contrarian1234 3y ago
  The basic benefits of free trade (based on comparative advantage) do not require both parties to engage in it They make a superior dancing video app, so then engineers in silicon valley can go work on something else instead
  - TulliusCicero 3y ago
    The point is that they get to access the Western market with their dancing video app, but Westerners aren't allowed to access their market with the apps they make. That gives those Chinese companies an unfair advantage in potential market reach.
    - contrarian1234 3y ago
      And it turns out that that's irrelevant in terms of net benefit to the citizen of a country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage Resources are reallocated elsewhere

tzs 3y ago

> All explicitly stated goals of both Bejing and the Kremlin, and the misinformation and distraction campaigns carried out by Russia in the last presidential election are about to ratchet up again. I don't believe we should be making these objectives any easier for our ideological rivals. Those campaigns mostly took part on platforms owned and operated by US companies.

basisword 3y ago

>> China literally has a nationwide firewall to prevent Western ideas from entering the minds of its subjects. Why should we throw open our digital borders to Chinese influence campaigns? Emulating the policies of a country 'we' think 'is bad' isn't great policy. >> undermine Americans' faith in our democratic institutions It seems like Americans did a pretty good job of this themselves at the last election cycle. A highly politicised Supreme Court, a violent attack on the Capitol, a lot of people who don't accept or believe the election result. How much worse can TikTok make things?

rusty_venture 3y ago
>> Emulating the policies of a country 'we' think 'is bad' isn't great policy. The paradox of tolerance. >> A highly politicised Supreme Court, a violent attack on the Capitol, a lot of people who don't accept or believe the election result. 2 out of 3 of these were precipitated by foreign influence campaigns on social media actively undermining Americans' trust in our political institutions, so yeah, prohibiting foreign-owned social media networks in advance of the upcoming election is definitely a step in the right direction.
- basisword 3y ago
  >> 2 out of 3 of these were precipitated by foreign influence campaigns on social media actively undermining Americans' trust in our political institutions Why is nothing being done about Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Truth Social, etc. etc? There are more users on Facebook alone.