8 ms·

You don't know what you're talking about. LCDs were completely unusable until the mid 2000s, even then they were all 60Hz/75Hz with no black frame insertion, w

You don't know what you're talking about. LCDs were completely unusable until the mid 2000s, even then they were all 60Hz/75Hz with no black frame insertion, which made any animation what so ever, even text scrolling blurred to crap. It took me years to figure out that this was why I suddenly couldn't read any text scrolling on logs on terminals. Yes, CRTs, flicker, it's a feature, it prevents motion blur. You're meant to put them up to 85Hz or so and flicker becomes less of an issue. There are two different types of flicker, the flicker fusion threshold, which is when humans still see flicker when looking directly at a flickering light source, and just general perceptible flicker, which can be seen easier at the corner of your eyes and in my experience goes up to 100s of Hz. The latter is an issue for all CRTs, and basically all LCDs up until 2015 or so when they started pushing flicker free. Before 2015, basically all LCDs flickered, typically between 100Hz-300Hz, and it was always visible, and also left artifacts on the screen during image panning (such as in a 3D game or when scrolling a map). Yes, low end CRTs had lots of blur but by the late 90s any mid ranged model had somewhat acceptable levels of blur, and moreover much less blur than you get the moment an image pans across an LCD. As an experiment, if you simply move an image across the screen at 15pixels per frame on a 60Hz LCD, it will already be blured to hell. Those Apple monitors have terrible grainy coating which some monitors choose to have for some reason. There's no tradeoff there, since there are plenty of LCDs without it. They also have bad viewing angles like all IPS contrary to marketing. The only advantage they have is high pixel density, and high color gamut which may or may not be functional or desirable but this is another can of worms. Wide gamut on a monitor is not just automatically good.

xcv123 3y ago
> You don't know what you're talking about. I used CRT for years until 2024 and I've lost count of how many Dell Ultrasharp and Apple LCD screens I've owned. > LCDs were completely unusable until the mid 2000s We're talking about monitors today. 2024. I switched to LCD in the mid 2000's when they became usable. > Yes, CRTs, flicker, it's a feature, it prevents motion blur. You're meant to put them up to 85Hz or so and flicker becomes less of an issue. It's a feature that I hated and caused a lot of pain. Maximum mine could do was 75 Hz. An 85 Hz screen was very expensive back then. And the flicker would still be crap even at 85 Hz. > As an experiment, if you simply move an image across the screen at 15pixels per frame on a 60Hz LCD, it will already be blurred to hell. Talking about the blurry low resolution. LCD is sharp. Not talking about pixel response time. We have 144hz+ LCD screens now. There were no 4k CRT displays BTW. Pixel response time on gaming LCDs is 1ms nowadays. > Those Apple monitors have terrible grainy coating Apple displays are glossy, not matte. The matte coating is optional on external XDR displays. Typing this comment now on my Apple 16" XDR display which is glossy, like a CRT. No grainy matte coating on this screen.
- dbttdft 3y ago
  When 85Hz CRTs were expensive, so were LCDs. CRTs were basically free by the time LCDs became remotely usable. There was basically no reason to ever buy an LCD until way after 2010. Everyone here who thinks otherwise has some dumb embarrassing reason like they thought they could finally get laid if they made their desk less cluttered. > And the flicker would still be crap even at 85 Hz. Oh yes, I'm sure, and you are just magically fine with 100Hz LCD flicker that existed in most of them until 2015+ and even then only on every odd model. You clearly know what you're talking about and not just assuming the values that matter align with your beliefs. Listen, you have zero clue what you're talking about. Please at least take the time to understand this next fact: Practically all LEDs flicker, usually at some absurdly low level like 100Hz or even 60Hz in really cheap ones. This is on 99% of modern vehicle tail lights, light bulbs, shaver LEDs, dishwashers, microwaves, practically all electronics such as even an external hard drive bay or USB stick, laundry and every appliance. And it annoys me. Why? Because it's at the corner of my eye. A human's eyes are highly sensitive to flicker, but only for stuff on the sides of their head, not directly in front. Which brings me back to CRT. When I'm using CRT, I'm looking directly at it, and this makes the flicker imperceptible even as low as 75Hz or so. Only if I turned my head to the side such that the CRT was on the edge of my vision it would become noticeable. For this reason, outside of this backwards world, one would have non flickering lights everywhere, and the only thing that flickers would be their monitor (because this is needed to prevent motion blur, the only alternative is to have a huge refresh rate like 500Hz+ and software that can keep up). And you are implying things work otherwise. They don't. > Talking about the blurry low resolution. LCD is sharp. Which part did you not get? I said a panning object on LCD will not be sharp or anything remotely close to it, it will be worse than the worst CRT. > Not talking about pixel response time. As I said LCDs have motion blur. It has nothing to do with pixel response. We had 200Hz CRTs in 1999. 144Hz LCD is still badly blurry, and these "gamer" LCDs tend to have weird bugs adding more pixel response artifacts than there would be if the "gamers" didn't design the firmware. > Pixel response time on gaming LCDs is 1ms nowadays. No, they are not. Why did you even edit that in. Those marketing numbers are simply false. In reality you have a different pixel response for every pixel transition (0-255), (0-40), etc. And you continue to not know what you're talking about by thinking this would reduce the motion blur. The motion blur in LCD has absolutely nothing to do with pixel response. > [i have the glossy apple] Okay, and the glossy ones have terrible glare. Somehow glossy LCDs always have worse glare than most CRTs, probably because the vendor only cares about the wow factor of what can be achieved by just ripping off the anti glare coating of any $2 monitor. LCDs also have worse image clarity on a glossy screen than a CRT. A plain screen set to show one color on even a glossy LCD looks gritty, while on a CRT it looks clear.
dang 3y ago
Please edit swipes (like "You don't know what you're talking about") out of your comments here. I realize the GP did it first, but that doesn't make it ok to break the guidelines yourself. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dbttdft 3y ago
  Actually people who consistently spread misinformation that powers the corporate racket that normalizes low quality technology deserve to be shamed, you just naively value politeness over correctness, which I am very aware is a huge problem with sites like HN, Slashdot, and Reddit. Where are you every time some stupid Apple or Tesla user explains how other people are just "poor" so they won't get why their overpriced garbage is so good? Nowhere. You're just an autistic moderator and will always be a bane to society with your social pedantry.
  - dang 3y ago
    Happily you can make your correct points while still remaining within the site rules, so there's no conflict with correctness. If, however, you continue to break the rules, then we're going to have to ban you no matter how correct you are or feel you are. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

xcv123 3y ago

> You don't know what you're talking about. I used CRT for years until 2024 and I've lost count of how many Dell Ultrasharp and Apple LCD screens I've owned. > LCDs were completely unusable until the mid 2000s We're talking about monitors today. 2024. I switched to LCD in the mid 2000's when they became usable. > Yes, CRTs, flicker, it's a feature, it prevents motion blur. You're meant to put them up to 85Hz or so and flicker becomes less of an issue. It's a feature that I hated and caused a lot of pain. Maximum mine could do was 75 Hz. An 85 Hz screen was very expensive back then. And the flicker would still be crap even at 85 Hz. > As an experiment, if you simply move an image across the screen at 15pixels per frame on a 60Hz LCD, it will already be blurred to hell. Talking about the blurry low resolution. LCD is sharp. Not talking about pixel response time. We have 144hz+ LCD screens now. There were no 4k CRT displays BTW. Pixel response time on gaming LCDs is 1ms nowadays. > Those Apple monitors have terrible grainy coating Apple displays are glossy, not matte. The matte coating is optional on external XDR displays. Typing this comment now on my Apple 16" XDR display which is glossy, like a CRT. No grainy matte coating on this screen.

dbttdft 3y ago
When 85Hz CRTs were expensive, so were LCDs. CRTs were basically free by the time LCDs became remotely usable. There was basically no reason to ever buy an LCD until way after 2010. Everyone here who thinks otherwise has some dumb embarrassing reason like they thought they could finally get laid if they made their desk less cluttered. > And the flicker would still be crap even at 85 Hz. Oh yes, I'm sure, and you are just magically fine with 100Hz LCD flicker that existed in most of them until 2015+ and even then only on every odd model. You clearly know what you're talking about and not just assuming the values that matter align with your beliefs. Listen, you have zero clue what you're talking about. Please at least take the time to understand this next fact: Practically all LEDs flicker, usually at some absurdly low level like 100Hz or even 60Hz in really cheap ones. This is on 99% of modern vehicle tail lights, light bulbs, shaver LEDs, dishwashers, microwaves, practically all electronics such as even an external hard drive bay or USB stick, laundry and every appliance. And it annoys me. Why? Because it's at the corner of my eye. A human's eyes are highly sensitive to flicker, but only for stuff on the sides of their head, not directly in front. Which brings me back to CRT. When I'm using CRT, I'm looking directly at it, and this makes the flicker imperceptible even as low as 75Hz or so. Only if I turned my head to the side such that the CRT was on the edge of my vision it would become noticeable. For this reason, outside of this backwards world, one would have non flickering lights everywhere, and the only thing that flickers would be their monitor (because this is needed to prevent motion blur, the only alternative is to have a huge refresh rate like 500Hz+ and software that can keep up). And you are implying things work otherwise. They don't. > Talking about the blurry low resolution. LCD is sharp. Which part did you not get? I said a panning object on LCD will not be sharp or anything remotely close to it, it will be worse than the worst CRT. > Not talking about pixel response time. As I said LCDs have motion blur. It has nothing to do with pixel response. We had 200Hz CRTs in 1999. 144Hz LCD is still badly blurry, and these "gamer" LCDs tend to have weird bugs adding more pixel response artifacts than there would be if the "gamers" didn't design the firmware. > Pixel response time on gaming LCDs is 1ms nowadays. No, they are not. Why did you even edit that in. Those marketing numbers are simply false. In reality you have a different pixel response for every pixel transition (0-255), (0-40), etc. And you continue to not know what you're talking about by thinking this would reduce the motion blur. The motion blur in LCD has absolutely nothing to do with pixel response. > [i have the glossy apple] Okay, and the glossy ones have terrible glare. Somehow glossy LCDs always have worse glare than most CRTs, probably because the vendor only cares about the wow factor of what can be achieved by just ripping off the anti glare coating of any $2 monitor. LCDs also have worse image clarity on a glossy screen than a CRT. A plain screen set to show one color on even a glossy LCD looks gritty, while on a CRT it looks clear.

dang 3y ago

Please edit swipes (like "You don't know what you're talking about") out of your comments here. I realize the GP did it first, but that doesn't make it ok to break the guidelines yourself. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dbttdft 3y ago
Actually people who consistently spread misinformation that powers the corporate racket that normalizes low quality technology deserve to be shamed, you just naively value politeness over correctness, which I am very aware is a huge problem with sites like HN, Slashdot, and Reddit. Where are you every time some stupid Apple or Tesla user explains how other people are just "poor" so they won't get why their overpriced garbage is so good? Nowhere. You're just an autistic moderator and will always be a bane to society with your social pedantry.
- dang 3y ago
  Happily you can make your correct points while still remaining within the site rules, so there's no conflict with correctness. If, however, you continue to break the rules, then we're going to have to ban you no matter how correct you are or feel you are. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html