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> Luddism is a caricature of an ideology "Luddites [...] protested against manufacturers who used machines in "a fraudulent and deceitful manner" to replace th

> Luddism is a caricature of an ideology "Luddites [...] protested against manufacturers who used machines in "a fraudulent and deceitful manner" to replace the skilled labour of workers and drive down wages by producing inferior goods". 1 It's not an ideology and it's not anti-progress. Workers losing their jobs to automation was a problem then and is a problem now and we still haven't figured out a good way to deal with this problem. People are right to be concerned about the effects of automation, people are right to be upset when they lose their jobs, and masses of people losing their jobs is terrible and leads to other socio-economic issues. Dismissing those complaints and ignoring those issues because hey, who cares about people that aren't me, living where I don't, when number must go up, right? is the bad ideology here. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite

nickelpro 3y ago
Replacing manual labor with automation is good, actually. Sewing machines put the weavers out of business yes, but more people get to wear shirts. I'm pro-shirts, anti-weavers. Preventing such replacement is definitionally anti-progress
- testacpwoek 3y ago
  >Preventing such replacement is definitionally anti-progress You can have automation while also ensuring that people do not lose their livelihoods. It's not anti-progress to say that automation must not come at the expense of the lives of the people it is replacing. This wilful misrepresentation of Luddites was bad then, and it's bad now.
  - nickelpro 3y ago
    > It's not anti-progress to say that automation must not come at the expense of the lives of the people it is replacing. Yes it is, we shouldn't deny 10000 people shirts or cars or fresh bread to save 100 jobs, but that's almost besides the point. This piece is arguing a far more straightforward and hilarious version of Luddism than you are. The piece argues that military drones and homeless-harassing robotics are bad not because of their nature, but because they are taking human jobs. It advocates for "restriction of automation to only the most dangerous forms of work" (hope you like churning your own butter). It is such a ridiculous piece of work that it almost seems like a false flag, a piece intentionally made to portray "moderate" luddism like the degrowth people (already extremists) seem even more insane than they already are.
    - testacpwoek 3y ago
      >Yes it is, we shouldn't deny 10000 people shirts or cars or fresh bread to save 100 jobs That's not what I said. I said that if we want automation, we must also have a system to keep the people it's replacing able to earn a living. That could be many things. Excess profit from automation could be paid to the people that it's replacing, and that's just the first thing that popped into my head. > but that's almost besides the point. The point was Luddites are not a caricature of an ideology, and their concerns and the issues they faced still exist today. We can have progress and still not mass-unemploy entire groups of people, but that comes at a cost to people in power, which is why we don't do it, and why labor movements historically have been met with violence by the state. HN is very quick to dismiss automation concerns because we're the ones building the automation, but there's no reason it won't come for us eventually, too. We're not the ones that own the factories, after all, we're just assembling them. As for the rest, yeah it doesn't seem like the author has a good grasp on anything lol, it even says that Ned Ludd was their leader, and a real person. Way to lose credibility in a single panel. I just always have to point out that Luddites were a LABOR movement, primarily, and not an anti-progress or anti-technology movement. There is zero reason for workers to suffer as progress happens, other than greed.
      - nickelpro 3y ago
        You're arguing for a social safety net, that's in no way what luddism means or advocates for. This is why it is a parody. Luddism doesn't argue for a social safety net, that people displaced by advances in automation and technology should be taken care of by the state. It argues that we shouldn't need a social safety net to take care of such laborers, because we should prevent automation from displacing them in the first place. This is exactly what the OP argues here. Could the luddites have been satisfied by such an arrangement? Maybe, but that's not what they did. They threw clogs in the looms, and luddism as an ideology describes that mechanism and no other. That particular nature is what makes luddism distinct from other labor movements. Luddism is not a synonym for "labor movement", it is a very specific set of prescriptions, and a laughable set of prescriptions at that.
        3y ago

nickelpro 3y ago

Replacing manual labor with automation is good, actually. Sewing machines put the weavers out of business yes, but more people get to wear shirts. I'm pro-shirts, anti-weavers. Preventing such replacement is definitionally anti-progress

testacpwoek 3y ago
>Preventing such replacement is definitionally anti-progress You can have automation while also ensuring that people do not lose their livelihoods. It's not anti-progress to say that automation must not come at the expense of the lives of the people it is replacing. This wilful misrepresentation of Luddites was bad then, and it's bad now.
- nickelpro 3y ago
  > It's not anti-progress to say that automation must not come at the expense of the lives of the people it is replacing. Yes it is, we shouldn't deny 10000 people shirts or cars or fresh bread to save 100 jobs, but that's almost besides the point. This piece is arguing a far more straightforward and hilarious version of Luddism than you are. The piece argues that military drones and homeless-harassing robotics are bad not because of their nature, but because they are taking human jobs. It advocates for "restriction of automation to only the most dangerous forms of work" (hope you like churning your own butter). It is such a ridiculous piece of work that it almost seems like a false flag, a piece intentionally made to portray "moderate" luddism like the degrowth people (already extremists) seem even more insane than they already are.
  - testacpwoek 3y ago
    >Yes it is, we shouldn't deny 10000 people shirts or cars or fresh bread to save 100 jobs That's not what I said. I said that if we want automation, we must also have a system to keep the people it's replacing able to earn a living. That could be many things. Excess profit from automation could be paid to the people that it's replacing, and that's just the first thing that popped into my head. > but that's almost besides the point. The point was Luddites are not a caricature of an ideology, and their concerns and the issues they faced still exist today. We can have progress and still not mass-unemploy entire groups of people, but that comes at a cost to people in power, which is why we don't do it, and why labor movements historically have been met with violence by the state. HN is very quick to dismiss automation concerns because we're the ones building the automation, but there's no reason it won't come for us eventually, too. We're not the ones that own the factories, after all, we're just assembling them. As for the rest, yeah it doesn't seem like the author has a good grasp on anything lol, it even says that Ned Ludd was their leader, and a real person. Way to lose credibility in a single panel. I just always have to point out that Luddites were a LABOR movement, primarily, and not an anti-progress or anti-technology movement. There is zero reason for workers to suffer as progress happens, other than greed.
    - nickelpro 3y ago
      You're arguing for a social safety net, that's in no way what luddism means or advocates for. This is why it is a parody. Luddism doesn't argue for a social safety net, that people displaced by advances in automation and technology should be taken care of by the state. It argues that we shouldn't need a social safety net to take care of such laborers, because we should prevent automation from displacing them in the first place. This is exactly what the OP argues here. Could the luddites have been satisfied by such an arrangement? Maybe, but that's not what they did. They threw clogs in the looms, and luddism as an ideology describes that mechanism and no other. That particular nature is what makes luddism distinct from other labor movements. Luddism is not a synonym for "labor movement", it is a very specific set of prescriptions, and a laughable set of prescriptions at that.
      - 3y ago