19 ms·

You (and I) are responsible if you are enjoying your privileges while – through no fault of their own - others suffer. Sweden and the west got rich through luc

by hej 14y ago

You (and I) are responsible if you are enjoying your privileges while – through no fault of their own - others suffer. Sweden and the west got rich through luck and exploitation. You are privileged. You are lucky. Recognize that and act on it.

Muzza 14y ago
I am certainly not responsible in any way for (for instance) Romania's poverty. There was this guy called Ceaușescu; he had a little bit to do with it.
- anderse 14y ago
  While you basically built this country? It happens that Swedes who are actually paid to think(or paid at all) don't often share your views. This might be because they are not expecting life to be a free ride just because they were born here.
  - Muzza 14y ago
    1) It does not follow from "I am not responsible for Romania's poverty" that I claimed "I built Sweden". Läs om, läs rätt. 2) I am not unemployed, nor paid to work with my hands. 3) Even unemployed people and manual laborers can have valid views on things, you elitist. 4) I never once mentioned wanting a free ride!
- mpusr 14y ago
  that may be so, but the actual beggars are not at fault, and this is important. simply because someone was not born within the borders of your country does not make them any less human. This is the point. A swedish life is worth no more or less than a romanian one. Your nationalist attitude is baseless. You happen to be born in sweden, they happen to be born in romania. If the tables were turned I'm sure you wouldn't think too highly of people with your opinion.
  - Muzza 14y ago
    > that may be so, but the actual beggars are not at fault, and this is important. simply because someone was not born within the borders of your country does not make them any less human. I have never denied anyone their humanity, only insisted that I shouldn't have to support them. > A swedish life is worth no more or less than a romanian one. If we are all equal, why do the left insist that a Romanian arriving in Sweden should have more entitlements than a Swedish citizen?
  - v0cab 14y ago
    The tables are turned. Someone born in Western Europe might well lead a life of poverty while a Japanese or South Korean person will have a great education, get a job straight out of university, and not want for material needs. Will South Korea or Japan donate their money to help such people, or allow them immigrate to their safe countries? They will not. Do you think the Chinese will?
    - mpusr 14y ago
      So basically, you think we shouldn't have welfare because you're not allowed to immigrate to China.
      - v0cab 14y ago
        I don't know how you got that out of what I said. I think welfare is quite good.
- Create 14y ago
  It is an open secret, that as all dictators, the Ceaușescus were also maintained by powers outside Romania. His wife was elected as member of the Illinois Academy of Sciences, besides multiple doctorate honoris, ie. from the Faculty of Sciences of Nice (and if I remember correctly, member of the Académie). Seemed like an approval of Western Europe, so to me it seems, that they had a little bit to do with the current situation. Actually little has changed since at the core, despite appearances.
  - Muzza 14y ago
    And once again the Swede* must atone for the sins of others (such as the Académie française). * Or more generally: white Western European.
newbie12 14y ago
To the degree I am privileged as a Westerner is not the result of luck or exploitation. It is the result of a very specific tradition of rights and governance. My obligation is to fight to protect and continue that tradition.
abraxasz 14y ago
I'm extremely happy to see that there are still generous people around. You see, I'm African, and when I see the current mess in my continent, I think that we should do something about it. Since you disagree with Muzza, I would suggest that we create a partnership in which we bring every african beggar to your country (Sweden?). That's a lot, and it'll probably severely mess up your country, but hey, here's your opportunity to act on your words! /sarcasm On a more serious note, would you want all the beggars in the world to go to Sweden? Why not? Oh, because it's too much and it wouldn't be good for Sweden right? Well every person has a different tolerance threshold for "what is good for Sweden". Maybe someone would argue with you that making Sweden an asylum for all the world's beggars is the ultimate way of repairing for your sins, and then call you a fascist for not wanting to do it. Well you're doing exactly the same with Muzza. What you consider something very reasonable (hosting Roumanian beggars and providing them with apartments or whatever) is seen as unacceptable by someone else. I guess I disliked your patronizing tone: people have different opinions and tolerance, and yours is no better or worse than any other.
spindritf 14y ago
West did not get rich through luck and exploitation. Particularly Europe didn't. If you look at the map, it's just some tiny backwater at the end of the world with little natural resources. Yes, there was plenty of exploitation but that's hardly unique to the western culture. And European peasants were the ones exploited for the most part. West has gotten rich because of its culture which allowed for development of science and technology (or at least hindered it the least), private property and enterprise, stable governments, honored contracts, and -- perhaps the cause of all those freedoms -- no single hegemon for much of its history and so a ruthless competition between the states on all field. You're confusing cause with effect. It's not exploitation that made Europeans do much better than the rest of the world, they were already doing much better which allowed them to conquer the world.

by hej 14y ago

Muzza 14y ago

I am certainly not responsible in any way for (for instance) Romania's poverty. There was this guy called Ceaușescu; he had a little bit to do with it.

anderse 14y ago
While you basically built this country? It happens that Swedes who are actually paid to think(or paid at all) don't often share your views. This might be because they are not expecting life to be a free ride just because they were born here.
- Muzza 14y ago
  1) It does not follow from "I am not responsible for Romania's poverty" that I claimed "I built Sweden". Läs om, läs rätt. 2) I am not unemployed, nor paid to work with my hands. 3) Even unemployed people and manual laborers can have valid views on things, you elitist. 4) I never once mentioned wanting a free ride!
mpusr 14y ago
that may be so, but the actual beggars are not at fault, and this is important. simply because someone was not born within the borders of your country does not make them any less human. This is the point. A swedish life is worth no more or less than a romanian one. Your nationalist attitude is baseless. You happen to be born in sweden, they happen to be born in romania. If the tables were turned I'm sure you wouldn't think too highly of people with your opinion.
- Muzza 14y ago
  > that may be so, but the actual beggars are not at fault, and this is important. simply because someone was not born within the borders of your country does not make them any less human. I have never denied anyone their humanity, only insisted that I shouldn't have to support them. > A swedish life is worth no more or less than a romanian one. If we are all equal, why do the left insist that a Romanian arriving in Sweden should have more entitlements than a Swedish citizen?
- v0cab 14y ago
  The tables are turned. Someone born in Western Europe might well lead a life of poverty while a Japanese or South Korean person will have a great education, get a job straight out of university, and not want for material needs. Will South Korea or Japan donate their money to help such people, or allow them immigrate to their safe countries? They will not. Do you think the Chinese will?
  - mpusr 14y ago
    So basically, you think we shouldn't have welfare because you're not allowed to immigrate to China.
    - v0cab 14y ago
      I don't know how you got that out of what I said. I think welfare is quite good.
Create 14y ago
It is an open secret, that as all dictators, the Ceaușescus were also maintained by powers outside Romania. His wife was elected as member of the Illinois Academy of Sciences, besides multiple doctorate honoris, ie. from the Faculty of Sciences of Nice (and if I remember correctly, member of the Académie). Seemed like an approval of Western Europe, so to me it seems, that they had a little bit to do with the current situation. Actually little has changed since at the core, despite appearances.
- Muzza 14y ago
  And once again the Swede* must atone for the sins of others (such as the Académie française). * Or more generally: white Western European.

newbie12 14y ago

To the degree I am privileged as a Westerner is not the result of luck or exploitation. It is the result of a very specific tradition of rights and governance. My obligation is to fight to protect and continue that tradition.

abraxasz 14y ago

I'm extremely happy to see that there are still generous people around. You see, I'm African, and when I see the current mess in my continent, I think that we should do something about it. Since you disagree with Muzza, I would suggest that we create a partnership in which we bring every african beggar to your country (Sweden?). That's a lot, and it'll probably severely mess up your country, but hey, here's your opportunity to act on your words! /sarcasm On a more serious note, would you want all the beggars in the world to go to Sweden? Why not? Oh, because it's too much and it wouldn't be good for Sweden right? Well every person has a different tolerance threshold for "what is good for Sweden". Maybe someone would argue with you that making Sweden an asylum for all the world's beggars is the ultimate way of repairing for your sins, and then call you a fascist for not wanting to do it. Well you're doing exactly the same with Muzza. What you consider something very reasonable (hosting Roumanian beggars and providing them with apartments or whatever) is seen as unacceptable by someone else. I guess I disliked your patronizing tone: people have different opinions and tolerance, and yours is no better or worse than any other.

spindritf 14y ago

West did not get rich through luck and exploitation. Particularly Europe didn't. If you look at the map, it's just some tiny backwater at the end of the world with little natural resources. Yes, there was plenty of exploitation but that's hardly unique to the western culture. And European peasants were the ones exploited for the most part. West has gotten rich because of its culture which allowed for development of science and technology (or at least hindered it the least), private property and enterprise, stable governments, honored contracts, and -- perhaps the cause of all those freedoms -- no single hegemon for much of its history and so a ruthless competition between the states on all field. You're confusing cause with effect. It's not exploitation that made Europeans do much better than the rest of the world, they were already doing much better which allowed them to conquer the world.