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Now the biggest issue is to get those that train to come back. A lot of Russians chose not to, same with Indians, and Japanese. China has an extensive espionage

Now the biggest issue is to get those that train to come back. A lot of Russians chose not to, same with Indians, and Japanese. China has an extensive espionage network focused on keeping track of exchange students and make sure that they fall in line. Much more so than any other nation. have a friend from Malaysia and they had this smart idea that if you study abroad and get a PhD or Masters (as I understood it) your entire student loan would be forgiven. Again people didn't move back, so the last I hear was that they tried to make it contingent on moving back to Malaysia. My info is abitout of date since it was a pre pandemic conversation I had with him.

alephnerd 3y ago
> chose not to, same with Indians Not anymore. It's because of visa and naturalization backlogs. When I was a kid growing up in the 90s and 2000s, it was common for Chinese nationals to naturalize and become citizens. When the Chinese backlog reached a decade long 10-20 years ago, a lot of top tier Chinese talent decided to return to China because employment visa hell sucks and the Chinese private sector formalized and grew. The same thing has started to happen with Indians as well (and happened to Koreans and Taiwanese in the 80s) A Tsinghua or Jiaotong grad might have an incentive to do graduate school in the US or work here a couple years, but there's no point spending 5-7 years to naturalize when you can return to China and get funded or get tenure. A similar thing has started happening in India as well at tier 1 IITs and then like.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Note that Chinese emigration rate increased again due to COVID, and more Chinese are staying since then. It will be interesting to see if that sticks or not. A lot of Chinese just hedge their bets with lives and investments in both countries (including anchor babies).
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    > A lot of Chinese just hedge their bets with lives and investments in both countries Yep. Ik. I lived in Richmond for a bit back in the day when it transitioned from HKers to Mainlanders. > Chinese emigration rate increased again due to COVID, and more Chinese are staying since then. It will be interesting to see if that sticks or not. Yep. I personally think it's a fumble on our (America's) part. A lot of top tier Chinese talent will gladly want to become American citizens or naturalize, but a bunch of populist anti-China measures have prevented Chinese STEM talent from naturalizing, so we aren't getting the cream of the crop anymore
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      > but a bunch of populist anti-China measures have prevented Chinese STEM talent from naturalizing, so we aren't getting the cream of the crop anymore I thought it was just the green card quotas, since once you get a GC naturalizing only takes a few years. The quotas are dumb, but are not specifically anti-china.
      - alephnerd 3y ago
        Not GC quotas - the backlog is 2 years now for Chinese nationals It's EO 10043 [0] that's the blocker. If you are a Chinese national who is in some way affiliated with tbe Chinese Civil-Military fusion, you cannot get a visa to the US. This EO is horribly written, as it essentially treats all Chinese universities or programs that get some kind of military funding (even a relatively minor grant) as part of the Civil-Military Fusion, as just about every Chinese STEM program is connected with a State Key Laboratory or the CAS. It's a Trump era EO that's still enforced. [0] - https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/06/04/2020-12217/suspension-of-entry-as-nonimmigrants-of-certain-students-and-researchers-from-the-peoples-republic https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/06/04/2020-12...
        seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        I think that only affects Technology institutes that are run by the PLA? Like Beijing Institute of Technology or Harbin institute of technology, but they do not seem to be enforcing it for PKU, Shanghai Jiaotong, or Tsinghua. The crazy thing is that these are generally lower tier universities in China. What a strange law. I can imagine this making those universities much less popular in future admittances.
        alephnerd 3y ago
        > PKU, Shanghai Jiaotong, or Tsinghua. They have State Key Laboratories as affiliated with them as well > only affects Technology institutes that are run by the PLA Nope. Any kind of tangentially military funded research (aka almost all of STEM) because of how vague "Civil-Military Fusion" is defined (or not defined in this case) > What a strange law Executive Order, not a Law. > making those universities much less popular in future admittances Maybe, maybe not. There isn't as much of a pull factor anymore especially after the DoJ's Thousand Talents prosecution shitshow. Trump really fucked up the China-to-US talent pipeline which was a net benefit for us. > they do not seem to be enforcing it for PKU, Shanghai Jiaotong, or Tsinghua F-1 and J1/2 applications have fallen dramatically since this EO was passed (though zero COVID and the shutting down of American consulates during that affected this as well)
- MaxPengwing 3y ago
  I was not aware of that, thanks for sharing! It does explain why I have seen more indian recruitment in EU from India and China since our backlog or naturalization process is only 5 years of living in the country and then 1-3 years for the bureaucracy to manage the application.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Most Tier 1/2 Indian and Chinese candidates prefer to remain in India+China instead of emigrating to the EU Top tier employers in both countries can pay Warsaw or Prague level salaries (eg. An IIT Kanpur class of 2024 undergraduate's average starting base salary is US$30,000 in India alone [0]), and you aren't going to be a de facto indentured servant Generally, Indian+Chinese talent that emigrates to the EU tend to be those whose career growth is limited due to attending non-target schools or lower tier companies. This excludes graduate students at top tier European institutions (eg. TU Munich, EPFL, etc) who are there explicitly for research, but end up returning to their home countries due to competitive tenure or funding offers. 20 years ago, a Chinese or Indian national attending TU Munich for a PhD would probably stay in Europe, but nowadays they get competitive tenure track offers at IITs or Double First Class Universities. [0] - https://m.economictimes.com/jobs/fresher/iit-kanpur-class-of-2024-secures-989-offers-in-first-phase-of-placement-with-average-pay-of-rs-26-27-lakh-per-annum/articleshow/106206544.cms https://m.economictimes.com/jobs/fresher/iit-kanpur-class-of...

alephnerd 3y ago

> chose not to, same with Indians Not anymore. It's because of visa and naturalization backlogs. When I was a kid growing up in the 90s and 2000s, it was common for Chinese nationals to naturalize and become citizens. When the Chinese backlog reached a decade long 10-20 years ago, a lot of top tier Chinese talent decided to return to China because employment visa hell sucks and the Chinese private sector formalized and grew. The same thing has started to happen with Indians as well (and happened to Koreans and Taiwanese in the 80s) A Tsinghua or Jiaotong grad might have an incentive to do graduate school in the US or work here a couple years, but there's no point spending 5-7 years to naturalize when you can return to China and get funded or get tenure. A similar thing has started happening in India as well at tier 1 IITs and then like.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Note that Chinese emigration rate increased again due to COVID, and more Chinese are staying since then. It will be interesting to see if that sticks or not. A lot of Chinese just hedge their bets with lives and investments in both countries (including anchor babies).
- alephnerd 3y ago
  > A lot of Chinese just hedge their bets with lives and investments in both countries Yep. Ik. I lived in Richmond for a bit back in the day when it transitioned from HKers to Mainlanders. > Chinese emigration rate increased again due to COVID, and more Chinese are staying since then. It will be interesting to see if that sticks or not. Yep. I personally think it's a fumble on our (America's) part. A lot of top tier Chinese talent will gladly want to become American citizens or naturalize, but a bunch of populist anti-China measures have prevented Chinese STEM talent from naturalizing, so we aren't getting the cream of the crop anymore
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    > but a bunch of populist anti-China measures have prevented Chinese STEM talent from naturalizing, so we aren't getting the cream of the crop anymore I thought it was just the green card quotas, since once you get a GC naturalizing only takes a few years. The quotas are dumb, but are not specifically anti-china.
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      Not GC quotas - the backlog is 2 years now for Chinese nationals It's EO 10043 [0] that's the blocker. If you are a Chinese national who is in some way affiliated with tbe Chinese Civil-Military fusion, you cannot get a visa to the US. This EO is horribly written, as it essentially treats all Chinese universities or programs that get some kind of military funding (even a relatively minor grant) as part of the Civil-Military Fusion, as just about every Chinese STEM program is connected with a State Key Laboratory or the CAS. It's a Trump era EO that's still enforced. [0] - https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/06/04/2020-12217/suspension-of-entry-as-nonimmigrants-of-certain-students-and-researchers-from-the-peoples-republic https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/06/04/2020-12...
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        I think that only affects Technology institutes that are run by the PLA? Like Beijing Institute of Technology or Harbin institute of technology, but they do not seem to be enforcing it for PKU, Shanghai Jiaotong, or Tsinghua. The crazy thing is that these are generally lower tier universities in China. What a strange law. I can imagine this making those universities much less popular in future admittances.
        alephnerd 3y ago
        > PKU, Shanghai Jiaotong, or Tsinghua. They have State Key Laboratories as affiliated with them as well > only affects Technology institutes that are run by the PLA Nope. Any kind of tangentially military funded research (aka almost all of STEM) because of how vague "Civil-Military Fusion" is defined (or not defined in this case) > What a strange law Executive Order, not a Law. > making those universities much less popular in future admittances Maybe, maybe not. There isn't as much of a pull factor anymore especially after the DoJ's Thousand Talents prosecution shitshow. Trump really fucked up the China-to-US talent pipeline which was a net benefit for us. > they do not seem to be enforcing it for PKU, Shanghai Jiaotong, or Tsinghua F-1 and J1/2 applications have fallen dramatically since this EO was passed (though zero COVID and the shutting down of American consulates during that affected this as well)
MaxPengwing 3y ago
I was not aware of that, thanks for sharing! It does explain why I have seen more indian recruitment in EU from India and China since our backlog or naturalization process is only 5 years of living in the country and then 1-3 years for the bureaucracy to manage the application.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  Most Tier 1/2 Indian and Chinese candidates prefer to remain in India+China instead of emigrating to the EU Top tier employers in both countries can pay Warsaw or Prague level salaries (eg. An IIT Kanpur class of 2024 undergraduate's average starting base salary is US$30,000 in India alone [0]), and you aren't going to be a de facto indentured servant Generally, Indian+Chinese talent that emigrates to the EU tend to be those whose career growth is limited due to attending non-target schools or lower tier companies. This excludes graduate students at top tier European institutions (eg. TU Munich, EPFL, etc) who are there explicitly for research, but end up returning to their home countries due to competitive tenure or funding offers. 20 years ago, a Chinese or Indian national attending TU Munich for a PhD would probably stay in Europe, but nowadays they get competitive tenure track offers at IITs or Double First Class Universities. [0] - https://m.economictimes.com/jobs/fresher/iit-kanpur-class-of-2024-secures-989-offers-in-first-phase-of-placement-with-average-pay-of-rs-26-27-lakh-per-annum/articleshow/106206544.cms https://m.economictimes.com/jobs/fresher/iit-kanpur-class-of...