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I started following the RED story before those folks ever released a camera, and I liked their spirit and mission. Some time passed and ultimately it was Black

by cfr2023 3y ago

I started following the RED story before those folks ever released a camera, and I liked their spirit and mission. Some time passed and ultimately it was Black Magic Design that accomplished what RED said they wanted to do. If you say you want to make high end cinema technology, or even just high quality imagery, accessible to the average person, a $17,500 price tag for just the camera body shows that you might have strange ideas about what constitutes an average person.

stephen_g 3y ago
The most affordable kinds of cameras at the time that you could realistically use for something going to theatrical release was the (1080p) Sony F900 and then F950, which were in the $250K ballpark… Then the Arri D-21 came out, I can’t even remember what price but same ballpark, it was a bit higher than 2K res. $17,500 for 4K was wild, and it was insane they actually managed to deliver it with the RED ONE.
- cfr2023 3y ago
  All good points, though following these acts of instigation for the industry, their competitors overtook them in the path to their goal.
ramesh31 3y ago
>If you say you want to make high end cinema technology, or even just high quality imagery, accessible to the average person, a $17,500 price tag for just the camera body shows that you might have strange ideas about what constitutes an average person. To be fair, their competition at the time was $200,000+ Panavision rigs that were completely prohibitive to independent filmmakers.
- cfr2023 3y ago
  A fair consideration indeed but a very relativistic use of terminology. $17,500 is not $200,000 that's for sure, but it's also not $5000 or $2500 or $100 (not that I expect $100 cine cameras). My only point is that their hearts were in the right place, but they may have ultimately done their best work as instigators. As well, despite my appreciation for their company, I never liked the images from their cameras.
kkukshtel 3y ago
I think if you know the RED story you know that at the time there were effectively 0 consumer-tier high end digital cameras. We're talking basically the advent of the DSLR revolution, where either you shot on a Canon 5D MK II or... an Alexa? Alexas retail around $50,000 (and weren't out until 2010), so RED offering actual 4K video digital camera with an easy conversion to EF mount glass (Canon) and a body that is literally half the size of an Alexa AND was consumer-purchasable at $17,500 (Alexa purchase process isn't "just buy on B&H") - it was huge. The other thing is that the camera market and the concept of "consumer" isn't really like normal "consumer" end stuff. High-end digital camera "consumer" stuff has different purchase cycles that traditional "consumer" things like iPhones don't have. Camera Operators/DPs typically buy these huge cameras and then rent them out or bill their cost back into their day rate. When RED says consumer, they mean that any person with money can buy one. Alexas, Panavision Cameras, Fony F65s, etc. all usually need to be bought by a cinema rental house and then are rented to operators. RED went around that and allowed people to buy cinema-tier cameras directly, which was huge. The market has adjusted since then and I think Blackmagic (and the Sony Alpha line) now more directly serve traditional definitions of "Consumer", but IMO none of that would have happened without RED paving the path.
- cfr2023 3y ago
  An insightful post indeed. I was acutely aware of it, shooting projects on horrible looking mini DV and expensive film stock. No question they spurred progress, I'd just envisioned that they would continue to carry the torch with all of their piss and vinegar. Now Black Magic Design produces ~$2000 cameras that produce consistently better images than RED to this day.
  - kkukshtel 3y ago
    The thing you'll hear from any camera pro though is that the actual shooting experience of Blackmagic isn't great. Making Blackmagic's behave for film is its own cottage industry and there's a reasons most people use stalwarts like Arri/Panavision/Sony/Red. If you're an entry level videographer, I'd much more recommend going the C300 route than being enticed by the BM price tag, as there are a lot of other hidden costs to just make things Work Well.
closeparen 3y ago
It’s not a hobbyists’s impulse buy, but it puts a week’s rental at a couple grand - that’s plausibly a group of upper middle class teenagers. It’s also something the equipment lending library in a media studies department can make available to student projects. Big step up from shooting on iPhones or hacked DSLR bodies, for a relatively small (in the universe of film production) increment in budget.
- cfr2023 3y ago
  Very fair points. I'm just nit picking about RED's instigation and influence being more valuable to camera industry than the cameras they delivered and the price points they delivered them at.
porphyra 3y ago
Z-Cam has full frame 8K cameras for $6000 and full frame 6K cameras for $3000 which is sort of affordable.

stephen_g 3y ago

The most affordable kinds of cameras at the time that you could realistically use for something going to theatrical release was the (1080p) Sony F900 and then F950, which were in the $250K ballpark… Then the Arri D-21 came out, I can’t even remember what price but same ballpark, it was a bit higher than 2K res. $17,500 for 4K was wild, and it was insane they actually managed to deliver it with the RED ONE.

cfr2023 3y ago
All good points, though following these acts of instigation for the industry, their competitors overtook them in the path to their goal.

ramesh31 3y ago

>If you say you want to make high end cinema technology, or even just high quality imagery, accessible to the average person, a $17,500 price tag for just the camera body shows that you might have strange ideas about what constitutes an average person. To be fair, their competition at the time was $200,000+ Panavision rigs that were completely prohibitive to independent filmmakers.

cfr2023 3y ago
A fair consideration indeed but a very relativistic use of terminology. $17,500 is not $200,000 that's for sure, but it's also not $5000 or $2500 or $100 (not that I expect $100 cine cameras). My only point is that their hearts were in the right place, but they may have ultimately done their best work as instigators. As well, despite my appreciation for their company, I never liked the images from their cameras.

kkukshtel 3y ago

I think if you know the RED story you know that at the time there were effectively 0 consumer-tier high end digital cameras. We're talking basically the advent of the DSLR revolution, where either you shot on a Canon 5D MK II or... an Alexa? Alexas retail around $50,000 (and weren't out until 2010), so RED offering actual 4K video digital camera with an easy conversion to EF mount glass (Canon) and a body that is literally half the size of an Alexa AND was consumer-purchasable at $17,500 (Alexa purchase process isn't "just buy on B&H") - it was huge. The other thing is that the camera market and the concept of "consumer" isn't really like normal "consumer" end stuff. High-end digital camera "consumer" stuff has different purchase cycles that traditional "consumer" things like iPhones don't have. Camera Operators/DPs typically buy these huge cameras and then rent them out or bill their cost back into their day rate. When RED says consumer, they mean that any person with money can buy one. Alexas, Panavision Cameras, Fony F65s, etc. all usually need to be bought by a cinema rental house and then are rented to operators. RED went around that and allowed people to buy cinema-tier cameras directly, which was huge. The market has adjusted since then and I think Blackmagic (and the Sony Alpha line) now more directly serve traditional definitions of "Consumer", but IMO none of that would have happened without RED paving the path.

cfr2023 3y ago
An insightful post indeed. I was acutely aware of it, shooting projects on horrible looking mini DV and expensive film stock. No question they spurred progress, I'd just envisioned that they would continue to carry the torch with all of their piss and vinegar. Now Black Magic Design produces ~$2000 cameras that produce consistently better images than RED to this day.
- kkukshtel 3y ago
  The thing you'll hear from any camera pro though is that the actual shooting experience of Blackmagic isn't great. Making Blackmagic's behave for film is its own cottage industry and there's a reasons most people use stalwarts like Arri/Panavision/Sony/Red. If you're an entry level videographer, I'd much more recommend going the C300 route than being enticed by the BM price tag, as there are a lot of other hidden costs to just make things Work Well.

closeparen 3y ago

It’s not a hobbyists’s impulse buy, but it puts a week’s rental at a couple grand - that’s plausibly a group of upper middle class teenagers. It’s also something the equipment lending library in a media studies department can make available to student projects. Big step up from shooting on iPhones or hacked DSLR bodies, for a relatively small (in the universe of film production) increment in budget.

cfr2023 3y ago
Very fair points. I'm just nit picking about RED's instigation and influence being more valuable to camera industry than the cameras they delivered and the price points they delivered them at.

porphyra 3y ago

Z-Cam has full frame 8K cameras for $6000 and full frame 6K cameras for $3000 which is sort of affordable.