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> They have an interest in this conflict that is not the same as Israel's. You are quite right, Israel's interest is to kill and displace the Palestinians, cru

by erokar 3y ago

> They have an interest in this conflict that is not the same as Israel's. You are quite right, Israel's interest is to kill and displace the Palestinians, crush them as a people. Very few human right groups would have an interest that aligns with that.

bawolff 3y ago
Israel would and has claimed otherwise. Maybe you don't believe them, but if the goal is to determine truth its probably better to start from a place of assuming innocence and change views based on evidence, not the other way around.
gryzzly 3y ago
what is "Israel"? are you referring to the people of Israel? Do you believe that 9 million Israelis have interest of killing and displacing Palestinians and crush them as a people? and what interest Palestinians have in regard to Israelis from your point of view?
- GordonS 3y ago
  Going by Israeli TV, Telegram channels and polls, unfortunately it really does seem like a large proportion of Israelis think of Palestinians as sub-human bugs to be crushed. Already we've seen settlers building an "outpost" inside Gaza, while Israeli soldiers watch on. Meanwhile, Israeli civilians block aid to starving children, again while the IDF watch.
  - gryzzly 3y ago
    can you link me to such polls?
    - GordonS 3y ago
      Sure: https://en-social-sciences.tau.ac.il/sites/socsci-english.tau.ac.il/files/media_server/social/peaceindex/2024-01-findings.pdf https://en-social-sciences.tau.ac.il/sites/socsci-english.ta.... This is a very interesting poll, and it clearly shows that Arabs want peace, while Israeli Jews do not. In reference to the same poll: "A vast majority of Jewish Israelis believe that the IDF is using an appropriate amount or not enough force" [0]. "Nearly 58 percent of respondents in one poll said they think the IDF is using “too little firepower” in Gaza" [1] [0] https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-783849 https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-783849 [1] https://truthout.org/articles/polls-show-broad-support-in-israel-for-gazas-destruction-and-starvation/ https://truthout.org/articles/polls-show-broad-support-in-is...
      - gryzzly 3y ago
        [flagged]
        GordonS 3y ago
        > that and the fact over 500 Israeli soldiers were killed by Hamas in Gaza so far Israel are the occupying, attacking force, and have massacred thousands of civilians. You want me to care about war criminals, who routinely broadcast their depraved attrocities on TikTok? Come on now.
        gryzzly 3y ago
        [flagged]
        YavuzKrgl 3y ago
        Israel is not defending itself. They are actively murdering civilians to the point you can claim it as genocide. [0] Hamas did not killed those civilians it was Israel who killed them.[1] Israel dehumanized Palestinians[2][3]. He is not a Jew hater, you are accusing him of something he is not and trying to deny the reality of the atrocities committed by Israel. As for all Jews, yes, they are all the same. If the Jews didn't have someone at the head of the Jews who was dedicated to building Solomon's temple by committing this atrocity, the Jews wouldn't have the courage to act. [0] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-tracker https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-ham... [1] https://www.liberationnews.org/evidence-shows-israel-killed-many-of-its-own-citizens-on-oct-7-then-blamed-hamas/ https://www.liberationnews.org/evidence-shows-israel-killed-... [2] https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1711737712623882469 https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/17117377126238824... [3] https://www.liberationnews.org/israel-calls-palestinians-human-animals-denies-gaza-civilians-food-and-water-bombs-homes-markets-mosques/ https://www.liberationnews.org/israel-calls-palestinians-hum...
        incognos 3y ago
        You cannot defend yourself in a territory that you occupy... no such right exists under international law.
  - gryzzly 3y ago
    and any reason you decided not to answer the second part of the question?
    - GordonS 3y ago
      Do you mean this part? > what interest Palestinians have in regard to Israelis from your point of view? I'm not sure I understand the question? Is it "how to Palestinians feel about Israelis?". If so, I don't know, but I can imagine how I might feel if I'd been dehumanised my entitre life; lived under brutal occupation/blockade my entire life, seen siblings carted off to be tortured in Israeli dungeons, had my father shot in front of me etc. Perhaps Israel should stop stealing land and homes, and stop their institutionalised dehumanisation of Palestinians; many Israelis seem to need de-radicalising.
      - gryzzly 3y ago
        [flagged]
        incognos 3y ago
        I can answer that for you, we expect Israel to abide by the 1993 Oslo Accords which provides for a two state solution agreed upon by both parties. So far Israel has breached that agreement since day one.
        GordonS 3y ago
        You specifically asked me for a response about "one side" - I respond, and am accused of bias. I just looked at your post history, and I regret engaging with you, as well, talk about hypocrisy. This is not Reddit - do better.
kaba0 3y ago
That’s why they moved out of Gaza wholesale, removing settlers, just to have Hamas rise to power and attack?
- incognos 3y ago
  You seem to have left out the 17 year blockade of Gaza by Israel, the intentional starvation of the population. The occasional bombings and "targeted" airstrikes... sure they just randomly attacked Israel one day because they felt like it...
  - nsguy 3y ago
    That's not the order things occurred. When Israel left Gaza it left it to the Palestinian authority and it wasn't blockaded (there was some partial blockade but it was practically open). The present walls and barriers around Gaza were put in place after the disengagement as a response to specific attacks coming out of Gaza. The previous restrictions on Gaza were also a result of attacks coming out of Gaza on Israeli civilians. If the population was starving while Hamas, the government of Gaza, managed to smuggle in RPGs, assault rifles, lathes, trucks, rockets, mortars, sniper rifles, heavy machine guns etc. then clearly the issue is a matter of their priorities, not Israel. Hamas stole concrete to make tunnels, used water pipes to make rockets, was the elected government, and is completely responsible if its population is starving (which I don't think was true anyways). You're also somehow conveniently leaving Egypt out of the picture. Why should Israel feed its enemies (and allow them to work in Israel, and give them water and power). Egypt could have done all that. But Hamas didn't only pick a fight with Israel- they also collaborated with ISIS in Sinai and picked a fight with Egypt. They "randomly attacked Israel one day" because they are consumed by hate and religious fanaticism. Just listen to what they say. If they chose peace, they'd get peace, Israel has no interest in randomly attacking them.

by erokar 3y ago

bawolff 3y ago

Israel would and has claimed otherwise. Maybe you don't believe them, but if the goal is to determine truth its probably better to start from a place of assuming innocence and change views based on evidence, not the other way around.

gryzzly 3y ago

what is "Israel"? are you referring to the people of Israel? Do you believe that 9 million Israelis have interest of killing and displacing Palestinians and crush them as a people? and what interest Palestinians have in regard to Israelis from your point of view?

GordonS 3y ago
Going by Israeli TV, Telegram channels and polls, unfortunately it really does seem like a large proportion of Israelis think of Palestinians as sub-human bugs to be crushed. Already we've seen settlers building an "outpost" inside Gaza, while Israeli soldiers watch on. Meanwhile, Israeli civilians block aid to starving children, again while the IDF watch.
- gryzzly 3y ago
  can you link me to such polls?
  - GordonS 3y ago
    Sure: https://en-social-sciences.tau.ac.il/sites/socsci-english.tau.ac.il/files/media_server/social/peaceindex/2024-01-findings.pdf https://en-social-sciences.tau.ac.il/sites/socsci-english.ta.... This is a very interesting poll, and it clearly shows that Arabs want peace, while Israeli Jews do not. In reference to the same poll: "A vast majority of Jewish Israelis believe that the IDF is using an appropriate amount or not enough force" [0]. "Nearly 58 percent of respondents in one poll said they think the IDF is using “too little firepower” in Gaza" [1] [0] https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-783849 https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-783849 [1] https://truthout.org/articles/polls-show-broad-support-in-israel-for-gazas-destruction-and-starvation/ https://truthout.org/articles/polls-show-broad-support-in-is...
    - gryzzly 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - GordonS 3y ago
        > that and the fact over 500 Israeli soldiers were killed by Hamas in Gaza so far Israel are the occupying, attacking force, and have massacred thousands of civilians. You want me to care about war criminals, who routinely broadcast their depraved attrocities on TikTok? Come on now.
        gryzzly 3y ago
        [flagged]
        YavuzKrgl 3y ago
        Israel is not defending itself. They are actively murdering civilians to the point you can claim it as genocide. [0] Hamas did not killed those civilians it was Israel who killed them.[1] Israel dehumanized Palestinians[2][3]. He is not a Jew hater, you are accusing him of something he is not and trying to deny the reality of the atrocities committed by Israel. As for all Jews, yes, they are all the same. If the Jews didn't have someone at the head of the Jews who was dedicated to building Solomon's temple by committing this atrocity, the Jews wouldn't have the courage to act. [0] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-tracker https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-ham... [1] https://www.liberationnews.org/evidence-shows-israel-killed-many-of-its-own-citizens-on-oct-7-then-blamed-hamas/ https://www.liberationnews.org/evidence-shows-israel-killed-... [2] https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1711737712623882469 https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/17117377126238824... [3] https://www.liberationnews.org/israel-calls-palestinians-human-animals-denies-gaza-civilians-food-and-water-bombs-homes-markets-mosques/ https://www.liberationnews.org/israel-calls-palestinians-hum...
        incognos 3y ago
        You cannot defend yourself in a territory that you occupy... no such right exists under international law.
- gryzzly 3y ago
  and any reason you decided not to answer the second part of the question?
  - GordonS 3y ago
    Do you mean this part? > what interest Palestinians have in regard to Israelis from your point of view? I'm not sure I understand the question? Is it "how to Palestinians feel about Israelis?". If so, I don't know, but I can imagine how I might feel if I'd been dehumanised my entitre life; lived under brutal occupation/blockade my entire life, seen siblings carted off to be tortured in Israeli dungeons, had my father shot in front of me etc. Perhaps Israel should stop stealing land and homes, and stop their institutionalised dehumanisation of Palestinians; many Israelis seem to need de-radicalising.
    - gryzzly 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - incognos 3y ago
        I can answer that for you, we expect Israel to abide by the 1993 Oslo Accords which provides for a two state solution agreed upon by both parties. So far Israel has breached that agreement since day one.
      - GordonS 3y ago
        You specifically asked me for a response about "one side" - I respond, and am accused of bias. I just looked at your post history, and I regret engaging with you, as well, talk about hypocrisy. This is not Reddit - do better.

kaba0 3y ago

That’s why they moved out of Gaza wholesale, removing settlers, just to have Hamas rise to power and attack?

incognos 3y ago
You seem to have left out the 17 year blockade of Gaza by Israel, the intentional starvation of the population. The occasional bombings and "targeted" airstrikes... sure they just randomly attacked Israel one day because they felt like it...
- nsguy 3y ago
  That's not the order things occurred. When Israel left Gaza it left it to the Palestinian authority and it wasn't blockaded (there was some partial blockade but it was practically open). The present walls and barriers around Gaza were put in place after the disengagement as a response to specific attacks coming out of Gaza. The previous restrictions on Gaza were also a result of attacks coming out of Gaza on Israeli civilians. If the population was starving while Hamas, the government of Gaza, managed to smuggle in RPGs, assault rifles, lathes, trucks, rockets, mortars, sniper rifles, heavy machine guns etc. then clearly the issue is a matter of their priorities, not Israel. Hamas stole concrete to make tunnels, used water pipes to make rockets, was the elected government, and is completely responsible if its population is starving (which I don't think was true anyways). You're also somehow conveniently leaving Egypt out of the picture. Why should Israel feed its enemies (and allow them to work in Israel, and give them water and power). Egypt could have done all that. But Hamas didn't only pick a fight with Israel- they also collaborated with ISIS in Sinai and picked a fight with Egypt. They "randomly attacked Israel one day" because they are consumed by hate and religious fanaticism. Just listen to what they say. If they chose peace, they'd get peace, Israel has no interest in randomly attacking them.