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I don't want to do the same things for boolean operations, or arithmetic, or pointer (de-)referencing in C like languages. Why would I want to do so when equall

by icen 3y ago

I don't want to do the same things for boolean operations, or arithmetic, or pointer (de-)referencing in C like languages. Why would I want to do so when equally familiar with a larger range of symbolic operations? Somehow the usual culprits of +-/*|^&% get a free pass on this, and are somehow less arcane than symbols like ⍋ or ⊃. There's nothing inherent about this, it's about familiarity, and once familiar, everyone always prefers the symbols over spelling it out like plus, minus, divide, multiply...

arijun 3y ago
The lack of familiarity was exactly my point? If you make a new language with a + symbol but spelled out the other functions, newcomers would understand it immediately. If you have whatever that Christmas tree symbol is, newcomers will be continuously looking up what they mean. You are making the language harder to learn for the sake of code golf. And if you had a toggle-able mode, you could still have your code golf.
arijun 3y ago
It’s funny because lisp enthusiasts will say “yes, lisp is harder to learn with all the parentheses, but trust me, it’s worth it” And then list some actual benefits. Whereas APL fans will insist it’s not hard while listing no benefits besides dense code.
- maximus-decimus 3y ago
  well yeah, dense code is the whole argument. It means you don't have to know any library, because it's so dense you can just write the whole thing from basic elements. You never have to look up anything!* * except for the fact you're supposed to remember the idioms for everything : https://aplwiki.com/wiki/FinnAPL_idiom_library https://aplwiki.com/wiki/FinnAPL_idiom_library
jimbokun 3y ago
The usual culprits show up on standard keyboards. That’s a huge advantage.
gpderetta 3y ago
For what is worth, you can use the keywords 'and', 'or', 'xor' etc. in C an C++ like you can in python. I for one greatly prefer them.

by icen 3y ago

arijun 3y ago

The lack of familiarity was exactly my point? If you make a new language with a + symbol but spelled out the other functions, newcomers would understand it immediately. If you have whatever that Christmas tree symbol is, newcomers will be continuously looking up what they mean. You are making the language harder to learn for the sake of code golf. And if you had a toggle-able mode, you could still have your code golf.

arijun 3y ago

It’s funny because lisp enthusiasts will say “yes, lisp is harder to learn with all the parentheses, but trust me, it’s worth it” And then list some actual benefits. Whereas APL fans will insist it’s not hard while listing no benefits besides dense code.

maximus-decimus 3y ago
well yeah, dense code is the whole argument. It means you don't have to know any library, because it's so dense you can just write the whole thing from basic elements. You never have to look up anything!* * except for the fact you're supposed to remember the idioms for everything : https://aplwiki.com/wiki/FinnAPL_idiom_library https://aplwiki.com/wiki/FinnAPL_idiom_library

jimbokun 3y ago

The usual culprits show up on standard keyboards. That’s a huge advantage.

gpderetta 3y ago

For what is worth, you can use the keywords 'and', 'or', 'xor' etc. in C an C++ like you can in python. I for one greatly prefer them.