7 ms·

This is not unique to X. Windows for example uses the same kind of "HWND" object for buttons as for top-level windows. Windows doesn't have the same client/serv

This is not unique to X. Windows for example uses the same kind of "HWND" object for buttons as for top-level windows. Windows doesn't have the same client/server overhead as X though. In Qt, there is an option to use either native windows for individual widgets or "alien" windows, in which only the top level widget is a native window - https://doc.qt.io/qt-6/qwidget.html#native-widgets-vs-alien-widgets https://doc.qt.io/qt-6/qwidget.html#native-widgets-vs-alien-....

pjmlp 3y ago
Yeah it was already the way of doing GUIs in 16 bit days.
rob74 3y ago
Yup... I was working on a password manager application for Windows a few years ago, which was easy for most applications using the native UI because of all controls having window handles - and was then disappointed that it didn't work in cross platform apps such as Firefox.
wruza 3y ago
GTK also uses windows for input-related widgets. It’s simply convenient to have a separate window context. Although these windows are GDK windows, which may or may not have system windows underneath, afair.
raphlinus 3y ago
Good further reading on this change is "Windowless controls are not magic"[1] from Raymond Chen, and the followup "Windows are not cheap objects"[2]. It's a fascinating tradeoff space. I think fine-grained windows worked reasonably well on limited hardware but did not scale to super-rich applications like web browsers, or a more sophisticated imaging model where widgets need to be composited with alpha-transparency. [1]: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20050211-00/?p=36473 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20050211-00/?p=36... [2]: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20050315-00/?p=36183 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20050315-00/?p=36...
- pillusmany 3y ago
  90s apps used these Windows handle controls and it was not a performance problem. On computers 100 slower than today and with 1000 times less memory. BTW, the current Windows Task Manager still shows the total HANDLE count on the CPU page. They were not used in apps with complex UIs because native controls were hard to skin and didn't work very well when their size was very small (as complex UIs tend to need)
  - adzm 3y ago
    Note the HANDLE count is kernel objects; windows and graphics objects will show as USER and GDI respectively. Each of these has its own heap and limits.
  - Someone 3y ago
    > 90s apps used these Windows handle controls and it was not a performance problem. That depends on the overhead per window. Microsoft Windows could use nested windows because it had separate Graphics objects to store such things as the current drawing pen, its position and the current font to use for drawing (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/gdiplusgraphics/nl-gdiplusgraphics-graphics https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/gdiplusg...) In comparison, on the classic Mac every window had a GrafPort that defined a boundary region, a clipping region, the current pen position, size, drawing pattern, etc. The Mac could have such heavy-weight window objects because it didn’t nest windows. Instead, each window had a single list of controls that were much lighter-weight. my gut feeling says separating the drawing state from windows as in MS Windows is the better choice, but I also think having separate entities called “windows” and “controls” as on the Mac is the better choice. (its documentation is ‘less than stellar’, but it appears GrafPort still exists: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/applicationservices/grafport https://developer.apple.com/documentation/applicationservice...)
    - skissane 3y ago
      > (its documentation is ‘less than stellar’, but it appears GrafPort still exists: GrafPort is part of QuickDraw, almost all of which was removed in 64-bit macOS. (A handful of QuickDraw functions survive, but they can't actually be used to do drawing, just to manipulate Point/Region/etc data structures.) From what I understand, this struct/typedef remains in the headers to help with compiling legacy code–but all the APIs which take it as an argument have been removed, so it is essentially a useless vestige.
Stratoscope 3y ago
Traditional Microsoft Windows apps do have one oddity here: the "client" and "non-client" areas. The non-client area included stuff like the title bar, min/max/close buttons and system menu icon, and resizing borders. The client area was where your app would put its content, including any child windows like buttons and list boxes. Many of the window messages for the client area had corresponding non-client messages, for example WM_PAINT and WM_NCPAINT. All of these messages would arrive in your GetMessage/DispatchMessage loop, but you would generally ignore the WM_NC versions and DispatchMessage would send them to the Windows code for default processing. OS/2 Presentation Manager took a more elegant approach here (but probably slower). You had one main window and everything inside it - both "client" and "non-client" stuff - was child windows. So you just had one set of messages for everything, no WM_NCxxxx messages at all. The client area was a child window, with other child windows for the non-client doodads.
- Dwedit 3y ago
  Non-client area also applies to controls (non-top-level windows) as well. For example, the border on a text box is part of the nonclient area of that window.
- fragmede 3y ago
  Oh god, WM_PAINT. that takes me back. I'm not convinced that css is better, given how many lives were wasted trying to get a responsive 3 column view to work before flex box, but here we are.
  - ale42 3y ago
    And something behind still needs WM_PAINT to display the thing styled by CSS... at least if it's displayed on a Windows machine
- barrkel 3y ago
  One object receiving different messages for painting its innards vs its chrome isn't particularly ugly. Most apps don't want to customize the chrome so they'll let the base class handle those messages, but the option is there. Windows is kinda smalltalk-like in its window message system.
AceJohnny2 3y ago
I remember when Qt introduced the "alien windows" concept, in 2007: https://web.archive.org/web/20080205085059/http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2007/08/09/qt-invaded-by-aliens-the-end-of-all-flicker/ https://web.archive.org/web/20080205085059/http://labs.troll... As they say, they had to do it to eliminate flicker. Which goes to show that if your elegant design can't scale, it will be corrupted until it can. Something something "worse is better"
codedokode 3y ago
Windows (unlike X) had built-in windows classes (for example: buttons, checkboxes, input fields) that you could use to turn a window into a standard control. That's why idea "everything is a window" worked well in Windows.
kragen 3y ago
i assume by 'windows' you mean 'microsoft windows', because otherwise your comment makes no sense smalltalk has worked this way since at least 01976, but the word they used instead of 'window' was 'view'. see for example steve burbeck's 01992 'how to use model-view-controller' which is describing smalltalk-80 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/238719652_Applications_programming_in_smalltalk-80_how_to_use_model-view-controller_mvc https://www.researchgate.net/publication/238719652_Applicati... > Views are designed to be nested. Most windows in fact involve at least two views, one nested inside the other. The outermost view, known as the topView is an instance of StandardSystemView or one of its subClasses. The StandardSystemView manages the familiar label tab of its window. Its associated controller, which is an instance of StandardSystemController, manages the familiar moving, framing, collapsing, and closing operations available for top level windows. Inside a topView are one or more subViews and their associated controllers which manage the control options available in those views. The familiar workspace for example has a StandardSystemView as a topView, and a StringHolderView as its single subView. A subView may, in turn, have additional subViews although this is not required in most applications. so it's not a peculiarity of x-windows; it's how windows/icon/menu/pointer guis have been built since the beginning. (i'd say 'it's how guis have been built since the beginning' but of course sketchpad, grail, nls/augment, and genesys didn't work this way, and they were certainly graphical user interfaces, even if very different in style.)
- samatman 3y ago
  > i assume by 'windows' you mean 'microsoft windows' Yes of course he did, and you don't have to guess, because the phrase "Windows for example uses" makes Windows a singular noun, compare with "windows for example use". There is no possible ambiguity in the post you replied to.
  - bongodongobob 3y ago
    Wait are you talking about Microsoft Windows? Your post makes no sense, I can't make heads or tails of it :(
  - kragen 3y ago
    sam, knock it off find a hobby other than harassing me on hn if you can't control yourself, take a break from hn (most recent previous incident, though not the only one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39402249 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39402249)
omnibrain 3y ago
The Start button is (or at least used to be) a Window. And in the first Release of they forgot to remove the window control menu - the thing that opens/used to open when you click the program icon on the top left corner. Obviously there was no program icon to click, but you could use a shortcut to open it. Then you could select "move" and move the start button on the task bar or even close it. After you closed it, it was gone and you had to kill explorer.exe via task manager and restart it, to get it back. I can't remember the shortcut, it must have been something like alt+-. In older programs this menu is still around and you can still use it to close programs, like you did in Windows 3.1 days. Even doubleclicking the icon in the top left corner still works to close those programs.
- toast0 3y ago
  > I can't remember the shortcut, it must have been something like alt+-. It's alt+SPACE. Very handy if you manage to get a window off screen, you that menu almost always shows up on screen, and you can select Move (possibly by hitting m), and then move (or drag) your mouse and the window comes back.
  - omnibrain 3y ago
    > It's alt+SPACE. Maybe, but I just tried it and it seems to open some type of search. > Very handy if you manage to get a window off screen, you that menu almost always shows up on screen, and you can select Move (possibly by hitting m), and then move (or drag) your mouse and the window comes back. I used to use it exactly for this, but it seems like they fixed something in the past 10 years, because that does no longer happen for me. I think the last time it happened was in the Windows 7 days. That's probably also why I forgot the shortcut. I still use the double click in the top left corner to close windows, but they kill that for more and more programs. For some time it still worked for some programs with reduced chrome, like tabbed browsers, when I clicked on a few of the blank pixels in the top left corner.
    - Stratoscope 3y ago
      > > It's alt+SPACE. > Maybe, but I just tried it and it seems to open some type of search. That's because you installed PowerToys, and the PowerToys Run module takes over the Alt+Space key combo. This really pissed me off the first time I wanted to use Alt+Space to rescue an offscreen window and I had no idea what this search box was. It's a real problem with the kids who maintain Windows today and the "modern" Windows apps. They just don't know, and don't care, what the classical keyboard shortcuts are and how important they can be. Here is one example of a GitHub issue that was closed as "wontfix": https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys/issues/13860 https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys/issues/13860 You can fix this by changing the "activation shortcut" for Run in the PowerToys Settings, or by disabling PowerToys Run entirely. I changed it to Win+Alt+Space and now Alt+Space works like it always has. Also, 'toast0' left out an important step in their description. You need to press Alt+Space, then M, and then any cursor key, and finally you can use the mouse to move the window.
fsckboy 3y ago
>Windows doesn't have the same client/server o̶v̶e̶r̶h̶e̶a̶d̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶X̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ...features and functionality as X, regretably
asveikau 3y ago
> Windows doesn't have the same client/server overhead as X though. Yes it does. You think they run that in the same address space? When there are multiple processes with different privilege levels running their UIs? Maybe this comment was accurate for Win3.1, but for a long time there is absolutely a client server architecture behind it. Anyway one of my favorite uses of HWND is to use a non visible window as a worker thread mechanism. Each HWND is tied to a message pump in the thread that owns it. So you can send it messages, and boom, you have a thread API...
- p_l 3y ago
  On all "Classic" Windows and on NT from NT4 until DWM in Vista, GDI was not client-server instead it would draw directly to VRAM With some kernel assistance on NT (before NT4, GDI calls were handled by separate server process). This is why misbehaving application could get you the famous "trailing window" effect where moving a window would leave partly painted trace of it behind - you had to wait for some other coffee to properly repaint that other area. With DWM, your GDI windows are backed by memory that at most will be a texture in DirectX, which will be then composited by DWM (equivalent of X11 extensions to capture window drawing into pixmap instead of lowest common denominator implementation of DIX/DDX that would draw immediately to framebuffer)

pjmlp 3y ago

Yeah it was already the way of doing GUIs in 16 bit days.

rob74 3y ago

Yup... I was working on a password manager application for Windows a few years ago, which was easy for most applications using the native UI because of all controls having window handles - and was then disappointed that it didn't work in cross platform apps such as Firefox.

wruza 3y ago

GTK also uses windows for input-related widgets. It’s simply convenient to have a separate window context. Although these windows are GDK windows, which may or may not have system windows underneath, afair.

raphlinus 3y ago

Good further reading on this change is "Windowless controls are not magic"[1] from Raymond Chen, and the followup "Windows are not cheap objects"[2]. It's a fascinating tradeoff space. I think fine-grained windows worked reasonably well on limited hardware but did not scale to super-rich applications like web browsers, or a more sophisticated imaging model where widgets need to be composited with alpha-transparency. [1]: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20050211-00/?p=36473 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20050211-00/?p=36... [2]: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20050315-00/?p=36183 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20050315-00/?p=36...

pillusmany 3y ago
90s apps used these Windows handle controls and it was not a performance problem. On computers 100 slower than today and with 1000 times less memory. BTW, the current Windows Task Manager still shows the total HANDLE count on the CPU page. They were not used in apps with complex UIs because native controls were hard to skin and didn't work very well when their size was very small (as complex UIs tend to need)
- adzm 3y ago
  Note the HANDLE count is kernel objects; windows and graphics objects will show as USER and GDI respectively. Each of these has its own heap and limits.
- Someone 3y ago
  > 90s apps used these Windows handle controls and it was not a performance problem. That depends on the overhead per window. Microsoft Windows could use nested windows because it had separate Graphics objects to store such things as the current drawing pen, its position and the current font to use for drawing (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/gdiplusgraphics/nl-gdiplusgraphics-graphics https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/gdiplusg...) In comparison, on the classic Mac every window had a GrafPort that defined a boundary region, a clipping region, the current pen position, size, drawing pattern, etc. The Mac could have such heavy-weight window objects because it didn’t nest windows. Instead, each window had a single list of controls that were much lighter-weight. my gut feeling says separating the drawing state from windows as in MS Windows is the better choice, but I also think having separate entities called “windows” and “controls” as on the Mac is the better choice. (its documentation is ‘less than stellar’, but it appears GrafPort still exists: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/applicationservices/grafport https://developer.apple.com/documentation/applicationservice...)
  - skissane 3y ago
    > (its documentation is ‘less than stellar’, but it appears GrafPort still exists: GrafPort is part of QuickDraw, almost all of which was removed in 64-bit macOS. (A handful of QuickDraw functions survive, but they can't actually be used to do drawing, just to manipulate Point/Region/etc data structures.) From what I understand, this struct/typedef remains in the headers to help with compiling legacy code–but all the APIs which take it as an argument have been removed, so it is essentially a useless vestige.

Stratoscope 3y ago

Traditional Microsoft Windows apps do have one oddity here: the "client" and "non-client" areas. The non-client area included stuff like the title bar, min/max/close buttons and system menu icon, and resizing borders. The client area was where your app would put its content, including any child windows like buttons and list boxes. Many of the window messages for the client area had corresponding non-client messages, for example WM_PAINT and WM_NCPAINT. All of these messages would arrive in your GetMessage/DispatchMessage loop, but you would generally ignore the WM_NC versions and DispatchMessage would send them to the Windows code for default processing. OS/2 Presentation Manager took a more elegant approach here (but probably slower). You had one main window and everything inside it - both "client" and "non-client" stuff - was child windows. So you just had one set of messages for everything, no WM_NCxxxx messages at all. The client area was a child window, with other child windows for the non-client doodads.

Dwedit 3y ago
Non-client area also applies to controls (non-top-level windows) as well. For example, the border on a text box is part of the nonclient area of that window.
fragmede 3y ago
Oh god, WM_PAINT. that takes me back. I'm not convinced that css is better, given how many lives were wasted trying to get a responsive 3 column view to work before flex box, but here we are.
- ale42 3y ago
  And something behind still needs WM_PAINT to display the thing styled by CSS... at least if it's displayed on a Windows machine
barrkel 3y ago
One object receiving different messages for painting its innards vs its chrome isn't particularly ugly. Most apps don't want to customize the chrome so they'll let the base class handle those messages, but the option is there. Windows is kinda smalltalk-like in its window message system.

AceJohnny2 3y ago

I remember when Qt introduced the "alien windows" concept, in 2007: https://web.archive.org/web/20080205085059/http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2007/08/09/qt-invaded-by-aliens-the-end-of-all-flicker/ https://web.archive.org/web/20080205085059/http://labs.troll... As they say, they had to do it to eliminate flicker. Which goes to show that if your elegant design can't scale, it will be corrupted until it can. Something something "worse is better"

codedokode 3y ago

Windows (unlike X) had built-in windows classes (for example: buttons, checkboxes, input fields) that you could use to turn a window into a standard control. That's why idea "everything is a window" worked well in Windows.

kragen 3y ago

i assume by 'windows' you mean 'microsoft windows', because otherwise your comment makes no sense smalltalk has worked this way since at least 01976, but the word they used instead of 'window' was 'view'. see for example steve burbeck's 01992 'how to use model-view-controller' which is describing smalltalk-80 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/238719652_Applications_programming_in_smalltalk-80_how_to_use_model-view-controller_mvc https://www.researchgate.net/publication/238719652_Applicati... > Views are designed to be nested. Most windows in fact involve at least two views, one nested inside the other. The outermost view, known as the topView is an instance of StandardSystemView or one of its subClasses. The StandardSystemView manages the familiar label tab of its window. Its associated controller, which is an instance of StandardSystemController, manages the familiar moving, framing, collapsing, and closing operations available for top level windows. Inside a topView are one or more subViews and their associated controllers which manage the control options available in those views. The familiar workspace for example has a StandardSystemView as a topView, and a StringHolderView as its single subView. A subView may, in turn, have additional subViews although this is not required in most applications. so it's not a peculiarity of x-windows; it's how windows/icon/menu/pointer guis have been built since the beginning. (i'd say 'it's how guis have been built since the beginning' but of course sketchpad, grail, nls/augment, and genesys didn't work this way, and they were certainly graphical user interfaces, even if very different in style.)

samatman 3y ago
> i assume by 'windows' you mean 'microsoft windows' Yes of course he did, and you don't have to guess, because the phrase "Windows for example uses" makes Windows a singular noun, compare with "windows for example use". There is no possible ambiguity in the post you replied to.
- bongodongobob 3y ago
  Wait are you talking about Microsoft Windows? Your post makes no sense, I can't make heads or tails of it :(
- kragen 3y ago
  sam, knock it off find a hobby other than harassing me on hn if you can't control yourself, take a break from hn (most recent previous incident, though not the only one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39402249 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39402249)

omnibrain 3y ago

The Start button is (or at least used to be) a Window. And in the first Release of they forgot to remove the window control menu - the thing that opens/used to open when you click the program icon on the top left corner. Obviously there was no program icon to click, but you could use a shortcut to open it. Then you could select "move" and move the start button on the task bar or even close it. After you closed it, it was gone and you had to kill explorer.exe via task manager and restart it, to get it back. I can't remember the shortcut, it must have been something like alt+-. In older programs this menu is still around and you can still use it to close programs, like you did in Windows 3.1 days. Even doubleclicking the icon in the top left corner still works to close those programs.

toast0 3y ago
> I can't remember the shortcut, it must have been something like alt+-. It's alt+SPACE. Very handy if you manage to get a window off screen, you that menu almost always shows up on screen, and you can select Move (possibly by hitting m), and then move (or drag) your mouse and the window comes back.
- omnibrain 3y ago
  > It's alt+SPACE. Maybe, but I just tried it and it seems to open some type of search. > Very handy if you manage to get a window off screen, you that menu almost always shows up on screen, and you can select Move (possibly by hitting m), and then move (or drag) your mouse and the window comes back. I used to use it exactly for this, but it seems like they fixed something in the past 10 years, because that does no longer happen for me. I think the last time it happened was in the Windows 7 days. That's probably also why I forgot the shortcut. I still use the double click in the top left corner to close windows, but they kill that for more and more programs. For some time it still worked for some programs with reduced chrome, like tabbed browsers, when I clicked on a few of the blank pixels in the top left corner.
  - Stratoscope 3y ago
    > > It's alt+SPACE. > Maybe, but I just tried it and it seems to open some type of search. That's because you installed PowerToys, and the PowerToys Run module takes over the Alt+Space key combo. This really pissed me off the first time I wanted to use Alt+Space to rescue an offscreen window and I had no idea what this search box was. It's a real problem with the kids who maintain Windows today and the "modern" Windows apps. They just don't know, and don't care, what the classical keyboard shortcuts are and how important they can be. Here is one example of a GitHub issue that was closed as "wontfix": https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys/issues/13860 https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys/issues/13860 You can fix this by changing the "activation shortcut" for Run in the PowerToys Settings, or by disabling PowerToys Run entirely. I changed it to Win+Alt+Space and now Alt+Space works like it always has. Also, 'toast0' left out an important step in their description. You need to press Alt+Space, then M, and then any cursor key, and finally you can use the mouse to move the window.

fsckboy 3y ago

>Windows doesn't have the same client/server o̶v̶e̶r̶h̶e̶a̶d̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶X̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ...features and functionality as X, regretably

asveikau 3y ago

> Windows doesn't have the same client/server overhead as X though. Yes it does. You think they run that in the same address space? When there are multiple processes with different privilege levels running their UIs? Maybe this comment was accurate for Win3.1, but for a long time there is absolutely a client server architecture behind it. Anyway one of my favorite uses of HWND is to use a non visible window as a worker thread mechanism. Each HWND is tied to a message pump in the thread that owns it. So you can send it messages, and boom, you have a thread API...

p_l 3y ago
On all "Classic" Windows and on NT from NT4 until DWM in Vista, GDI was not client-server instead it would draw directly to VRAM With some kernel assistance on NT (before NT4, GDI calls were handled by separate server process). This is why misbehaving application could get you the famous "trailing window" effect where moving a window would leave partly painted trace of it behind - you had to wait for some other coffee to properly repaint that other area. With DWM, your GDI windows are backed by memory that at most will be a texture in DirectX, which will be then composited by DWM (equivalent of X11 extensions to capture window drawing into pixmap instead of lowest common denominator implementation of DIX/DDX that would draw immediately to framebuffer)