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> cultivating the mentality that lying in the trenches for your country/culture/values might be necessary. That would mean cultivating the mentality that a cou

> cultivating the mentality that lying in the trenches for your country/culture/values might be necessary. That would mean cultivating the mentality that a country is more than just an economic platform, because that's not something anyone is willing to die for. It means cultivating the dreaded nationalism.

The_Colonel 3y ago
> That would mean cultivating the mentality that a country is more than just an economic platform Is it just that, or does it perhaps protect also other rights? Is the economic prosperity the only reason one might prefer living in Germany over Russia?
- jevoten 3y ago
  Point taken. But what about in Germany over Canada? Or Italy? Or Spain, or Australia, or the US, or New Zealand, or UK, or Iceland, or Taiwan, or Japan or... there are lots of mostly free countries (so long as you don't engage in the growing category of hate-speech) one can run to, once freed from the concepts of homeland and nation.
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    Will your whole family and friends run too? Will you move your whole social life with you or are you ready to accept your life will be torn apart? Once Germany gets submitted without a fight, how long will it take until Italy is attacked? I mean, with this "running away" philosophy it's pretty easy to take countries without facing a resistance now.
    - jevoten 3y ago
      > Will you move your whole social life with you A small price compared to dying in war. I'm not saying it's the right choice, but if you have no attachment to your country and people beyond it being a comfortable place to live, that's the choice most will make.
      - The_Colonel 3y ago
        Let me present you an alternative. Europe can build up a credible defense capability which will provide a strong deterrence to Russia. In that case you don't have to die in the trenches and you don't have to spend your life running away from the aggressor. Nazi Germany did not invade Switzerland, USSR did not invade Finland (after suffering horrible losses in the Winter war), even though both had their own claims on them, because the costs of such an adventure were considered too high. A big part of this deterrence was a population willing to fight to defend their homeland.
        type0 3y ago
        it's a bit more nuanced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization
        tim333 3y ago
        Also of course the USSR did invade Finland but got stopped before they could take that much territory, maybe a bit like what will happen in Ukraine.
        type0 3y ago
        Not at all like in Ukraine, winter war ended because ww2 started, though you could also see it as the beginning of the same war
        Wytwwww 3y ago
        > Nazi Germany did not invade Switzerland, USSR did not invade Finland To be fair these aren't exactly the most relevant examples. On paper the balance of power economically (and military to a somewhat lesser degree) is certainly on the side of the EU/NATO. It would be relative pretty cheap to invest enough just to deter a second rate country (besides nukes) like Russia.
  - Wytwwww 3y ago
    Is Italy threatening to nuke or invade Germany because the Germans won't let them annex Austria? I don't think so.. Or are you suggesting that people can just move to another place when their home country gets taken over by fascist imperialists? Because that doesn't really scale that well...

The_Colonel 3y ago

> That would mean cultivating the mentality that a country is more than just an economic platform Is it just that, or does it perhaps protect also other rights? Is the economic prosperity the only reason one might prefer living in Germany over Russia?

jevoten 3y ago
Point taken. But what about in Germany over Canada? Or Italy? Or Spain, or Australia, or the US, or New Zealand, or UK, or Iceland, or Taiwan, or Japan or... there are lots of mostly free countries (so long as you don't engage in the growing category of hate-speech) one can run to, once freed from the concepts of homeland and nation.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  Will your whole family and friends run too? Will you move your whole social life with you or are you ready to accept your life will be torn apart? Once Germany gets submitted without a fight, how long will it take until Italy is attacked? I mean, with this "running away" philosophy it's pretty easy to take countries without facing a resistance now.
  - jevoten 3y ago
    > Will you move your whole social life with you A small price compared to dying in war. I'm not saying it's the right choice, but if you have no attachment to your country and people beyond it being a comfortable place to live, that's the choice most will make.
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      Let me present you an alternative. Europe can build up a credible defense capability which will provide a strong deterrence to Russia. In that case you don't have to die in the trenches and you don't have to spend your life running away from the aggressor. Nazi Germany did not invade Switzerland, USSR did not invade Finland (after suffering horrible losses in the Winter war), even though both had their own claims on them, because the costs of such an adventure were considered too high. A big part of this deterrence was a population willing to fight to defend their homeland.
      - type0 3y ago
        it's a bit more nuanced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization
        tim333 3y ago
        Also of course the USSR did invade Finland but got stopped before they could take that much territory, maybe a bit like what will happen in Ukraine.
        type0 3y ago
        Not at all like in Ukraine, winter war ended because ww2 started, though you could also see it as the beginning of the same war
      - Wytwwww 3y ago
        > Nazi Germany did not invade Switzerland, USSR did not invade Finland To be fair these aren't exactly the most relevant examples. On paper the balance of power economically (and military to a somewhat lesser degree) is certainly on the side of the EU/NATO. It would be relative pretty cheap to invest enough just to deter a second rate country (besides nukes) like Russia.
- Wytwwww 3y ago
  Is Italy threatening to nuke or invade Germany because the Germans won't let them annex Austria? I don't think so.. Or are you suggesting that people can just move to another place when their home country gets taken over by fascist imperialists? Because that doesn't really scale that well...