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I believe that Yuzu includes a standalone implementation of the Switch firmware but can run user-provided firmware because a few games have compatibility issues

by Osmose 3y ago

I believe that Yuzu includes a standalone implementation of the Switch firmware but can run user-provided firmware because a few games have compatibility issues, and it doesn't run Nintendo's own OS software (you can't run the Switch system menu on it, for example). But to your larger point: Nintendo being mad about people sharing Switch ROMs or Yuzu funding their work shouldn't have any bearing on the actual legal question of whether Yuzu violates the DMCA anti-circumvention clause. Dolphin argued after legal consultation that inclusion of these keys qualifies under exceptions for interoperability; Yuzu doesn't include the keys at all. It doesn't appear to have been a question tested in the courts yet. That point _does_ matter if you're making a moral argument about whether Yuzu crossed a line, but given that emulation has been commonplace for almost the entirety of Nintendo's video game business and it has done very little to stop them from staying on top of the game industry, but has enabled millions to experience and be inspired by games they would've otherwise never have been able to play, I'm not terribly convinced that $23k a month in donations is wrong for people putting in serious engineering work into a project that enables that.

echelon 3y ago
> I'm not terribly convinced that $23k a month in donations is wrong for people putting in serious engineering work into a project that enables that. That's not it. Say what you will about "sales lost to piracy are not sales", but Netflix and Steam suggest otherwise. Kids playing Zelda for free might be spending their opportunity cost money on Xbox instead because of what Yuzu enabled. I support hardware and software emulation. The stuff Kaze [1] and others do is both amazing and inspiring. It's the correct kind of emulation. Yuzu wasn't acting in good faith. The team saw abuse firsthand and embraced it. [1] https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCuvSqzfO_LV_QzHdmEj84SQ https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCuvSqzfO_LV_QzHdmEj84SQ
- rahkiin 3y ago
  Netflix, Steam, and Spotify show that the best deterrent from piracy is easy access. Eg I would love to play Zelda or Mario but I do not feel like getting a whole switch for it that is just another console in the closet used a couple of times per month at most.
  - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
    > Netflix, Steam, and Spotify show that the best deterrent from piracy is easy access. Right, and the problem is that piracy in Yuzu is easy. Piracy on a real Switch is much harder (you have to track down an early model Switch if nothing else).
    - skeaker 3y ago
      Piracy will almost always be the more convenient option. It is up to companies to provide a better service, as is the case with Steam and (until recently) Netflix. Attacking and shutting down avenues for piracy without doing anything to make your own service more convenient is a losing strategy. Nintendo got 2 million here, but has done virtually nothing to stop the average person from pirating a Switch game. It's for that reason that I honestly don't believe their goal was to stop piracy or emulation with this case, they just saw an easy buck and took it.
      - Dban1 3y ago
        I think they crippled pirating new Switch games because Yuzu won't be able to update to support new titles anymore.
  - gpspake 3y ago
    For what it's worth, I did this with the PS4 to play like two or three games. On the other hand, I've played 100%ed more games on the switch than any console since probably super Nintendo or N64. It's had such an amazing run. I do wish they'd release more games though. I played all the donkey Kong country games, super Metroid, and super Mario on the emulator and it was great. I've been thinking about busting the Wii u out just to play wind waker.
  - phatfish 3y ago
    You can get new Nintendo games as fast as you can download them from the E-Shop, which is as easy access as anywhere else. Obviously you need a Switch to play them legally (it's that whole console gaming thing).
- Osmose 3y ago
  > Kids playing Zelda for free might be spending their opportunity cost Money on Xbox instead. ...I don't follow? You're suggesting businesses have a right to attention? > But Yuzu wasn't acting in good faith. The team saw abuse firsthand and embraced it. As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, they had rules against ROM distribution and some of the links shared as evidence that they didn't have been by unrelated people.
  - echelon 3y ago
    > ...I don't follow? You're suggesting businesses have a right to attention? Companies should be able to be paid for their products. You have the freedom of taking your money and attention elsewhere, but the illicit piracy of these products is not good for the labor and capital that went into making the product. In a market of entertainment choices, there are a limited number of dollars that can and will be spent. Certain people are cheating the system to get free entertainment and to double dip. A gamer that enjoys both Xbox and Nintendo games can get two for the price of one by pirating the latter. Even if there is equal demand for both products, the supply side has been illegally distorted. This doubly lowers the competitive fitness of the latter company. If I bought and paid for the game, I should be free to emulate. But that's not what's happening here. > As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, they had rules against ROM distribution and some of the links shared as evidence that they didn't have been by unrelated people. As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, Yuzu embraced piracy. They knew it was happening and focused their energies on enabling new releases and getting users to pay for early access builds.
    - maxrecursion 3y ago
      Emulation is great because it preserves games that would be lost to time after the physical media dies off. Emulation that allows piracy of brand new games is straight up stealing. While I don't feel sorry for large corporations because they screw everyone over as well, there are plenty of cheap older games people can play, or get game pass. People like to act like they are entitled to these new releases for free. They aren't. Play another game and get it for cheaper later, or emulate it long after its release.
- LtdJorge 3y ago
  I will never have bought a console before. Know I'm gonna get Yuzu installed on my EmuDeck as a personal fuck you to Nintendo and play all the games I find interesting (mainly Zelda).

by Osmose 3y ago

echelon 3y ago

> I'm not terribly convinced that $23k a month in donations is wrong for people putting in serious engineering work into a project that enables that. That's not it. Say what you will about "sales lost to piracy are not sales", but Netflix and Steam suggest otherwise. Kids playing Zelda for free might be spending their opportunity cost money on Xbox instead because of what Yuzu enabled. I support hardware and software emulation. The stuff Kaze [1] and others do is both amazing and inspiring. It's the correct kind of emulation. Yuzu wasn't acting in good faith. The team saw abuse firsthand and embraced it. [1] https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCuvSqzfO_LV_QzHdmEj84SQ https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCuvSqzfO_LV_QzHdmEj84SQ

rahkiin 3y ago
Netflix, Steam, and Spotify show that the best deterrent from piracy is easy access. Eg I would love to play Zelda or Mario but I do not feel like getting a whole switch for it that is just another console in the closet used a couple of times per month at most.
- Wowfunhappy 3y ago
  > Netflix, Steam, and Spotify show that the best deterrent from piracy is easy access. Right, and the problem is that piracy in Yuzu is easy. Piracy on a real Switch is much harder (you have to track down an early model Switch if nothing else).
  - skeaker 3y ago
    Piracy will almost always be the more convenient option. It is up to companies to provide a better service, as is the case with Steam and (until recently) Netflix. Attacking and shutting down avenues for piracy without doing anything to make your own service more convenient is a losing strategy. Nintendo got 2 million here, but has done virtually nothing to stop the average person from pirating a Switch game. It's for that reason that I honestly don't believe their goal was to stop piracy or emulation with this case, they just saw an easy buck and took it.
    - Dban1 3y ago
      I think they crippled pirating new Switch games because Yuzu won't be able to update to support new titles anymore.
- gpspake 3y ago
  For what it's worth, I did this with the PS4 to play like two or three games. On the other hand, I've played 100%ed more games on the switch than any console since probably super Nintendo or N64. It's had such an amazing run. I do wish they'd release more games though. I played all the donkey Kong country games, super Metroid, and super Mario on the emulator and it was great. I've been thinking about busting the Wii u out just to play wind waker.
- phatfish 3y ago
  You can get new Nintendo games as fast as you can download them from the E-Shop, which is as easy access as anywhere else. Obviously you need a Switch to play them legally (it's that whole console gaming thing).
Osmose 3y ago
> Kids playing Zelda for free might be spending their opportunity cost Money on Xbox instead. ...I don't follow? You're suggesting businesses have a right to attention? > But Yuzu wasn't acting in good faith. The team saw abuse firsthand and embraced it. As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, they had rules against ROM distribution and some of the links shared as evidence that they didn't have been by unrelated people.
- echelon 3y ago
  > ...I don't follow? You're suggesting businesses have a right to attention? Companies should be able to be paid for their products. You have the freedom of taking your money and attention elsewhere, but the illicit piracy of these products is not good for the labor and capital that went into making the product. In a market of entertainment choices, there are a limited number of dollars that can and will be spent. Certain people are cheating the system to get free entertainment and to double dip. A gamer that enjoys both Xbox and Nintendo games can get two for the price of one by pirating the latter. Even if there is equal demand for both products, the supply side has been illegally distorted. This doubly lowers the competitive fitness of the latter company. If I bought and paid for the game, I should be free to emulate. But that's not what's happening here. > As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, they had rules against ROM distribution and some of the links shared as evidence that they didn't have been by unrelated people. As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, Yuzu embraced piracy. They knew it was happening and focused their energies on enabling new releases and getting users to pay for early access builds.
  - maxrecursion 3y ago
    Emulation is great because it preserves games that would be lost to time after the physical media dies off. Emulation that allows piracy of brand new games is straight up stealing. While I don't feel sorry for large corporations because they screw everyone over as well, there are plenty of cheap older games people can play, or get game pass. People like to act like they are entitled to these new releases for free. They aren't. Play another game and get it for cheaper later, or emulate it long after its release.
LtdJorge 3y ago
I will never have bought a console before. Know I'm gonna get Yuzu installed on my EmuDeck as a personal fuck you to Nintendo and play all the games I find interesting (mainly Zelda).