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Those of us who survive childbirth and childhood probably do work longer hours than some of our ancestors. I refuse to agree that it is "relatively bad" becaus

Those of us who survive childbirth and childhood probably do work longer hours than some of our ancestors. I refuse to agree that it is "relatively bad" because I am happy that I live in a medically advanced civilisation with low childhood mortality and high life expectancies.

lm28469 3y ago
I guess if you only look at the upsides it's not such a bad place.
- jonathanlydall 3y ago
  Likewise, I guess if you only look at the downsides it's not such a great place.
  - lm28469 3y ago
    idk, the medically advanced civilization means my parents are paying 5k a month for my grandma's retirement house, essentially draining all their savings. Is this progress or were multi generation house better ? What's sure is that my parent's 90sqm house they're paying for the last 20 years and will pay for the next 15 years isn't big enough for that My grandparents afforded 4 kids on a single paycheck, I can barely sustain myself and my gf while having a job in one of the best paying sector. They retired at 60, while working 35 hours per week, at that rate I won't legally be able to retire before 70+ and I'm working 42 hours per week I could go on and on and on
    - caddemon 3y ago
      How big was their house? 3 of my 4 grandparents grew up in multi-generational houses, all of their parents were very working class, and yes they "afforded" raising kids and housing their elderly. Their houses were not bigger than 100 sqm though. All shared rooms, and there was typically 1 bathroom for the entire household. Clothes were hand me downs and meals were only what they could afford, so the meat in their diet was mostly weird low quality stuff. They shared bath water! The lifestyle described is 100% still attainable today. It is your parent's choice not to have grandparents in the house - in line with societal standards today, but certainly not impossible.
      - lm28469 3y ago
        In the tech bubble maybe, but in the real world certainly not. In the golden age you had that as a fancy factory worker, now you have that if you're well paid in a well paid industry Real wages completely flattened since the 70s, and even declined in some western countries, while working hours and retirement age both increased. No one in 2024 supports a family and buys a new home/car on a factory salary, I can't even afford any of that while being in the top 20% earners in Germany, given the average cost per sqm and the current mortgage settings, I could afford a 50sqm house with a 30 years mortgage...
        xyzelement 3y ago
        // can't even afford any of that while being in the top 20% earners in Germany I ask this as a sincere question - according to Google, 50% of germans live in a home they own, and obviously some Germans are having kids (although the birth rate is horrendous) Who are the people that are buying home and having kids? Are these activities limited to the 1%?
        lm28469 3y ago
        Couples with high income, inheritance, people who live on credit and debt, &c. Not many can afford a new house with a single income, let alone to support a family with kids, maybe not 1% earners but definitely around 10%. A friend of mine has kids, they spend 60% of their household income on the flat they rent (2 salaries, both a good 20% above average for the city), that's before the car, heating, electricity, kids spendings, food, &c. and they're already one hour away from the city center by train There isn't much up for debate I'm afraid: https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ifomkf25BuWY/v0/-1x-1.png https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ifomkf25BuW... https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?id=QDEN628BIS&nsh=1&width=600&height=400 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?id=QDEN628BI... https://www.statista.com/graphic/1/416207/average-annual-wages-germany-y-on-y-in-euros.jpg https://www.statista.com/graphic/1/416207/average-annual-wag... https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carlo-Jaeger/publication/255612076/figure/fig9/AS:669547560452096@1536643986011/Widening-discrepancy-between-wage-ratio-and-productivity-in-Germany.png https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carlo-Jaeger/publicatio... https://www.move.org/app/uploads/2020/04/Home-price-changes-since-1975-1024x572.png https://www.move.org/app/uploads/2020/04/Home-price-changes-...

lm28469 3y ago

I guess if you only look at the upsides it's not such a bad place.

jonathanlydall 3y ago
Likewise, I guess if you only look at the downsides it's not such a great place.
- lm28469 3y ago
  idk, the medically advanced civilization means my parents are paying 5k a month for my grandma's retirement house, essentially draining all their savings. Is this progress or were multi generation house better ? What's sure is that my parent's 90sqm house they're paying for the last 20 years and will pay for the next 15 years isn't big enough for that My grandparents afforded 4 kids on a single paycheck, I can barely sustain myself and my gf while having a job in one of the best paying sector. They retired at 60, while working 35 hours per week, at that rate I won't legally be able to retire before 70+ and I'm working 42 hours per week I could go on and on and on
  - caddemon 3y ago
    How big was their house? 3 of my 4 grandparents grew up in multi-generational houses, all of their parents were very working class, and yes they "afforded" raising kids and housing their elderly. Their houses were not bigger than 100 sqm though. All shared rooms, and there was typically 1 bathroom for the entire household. Clothes were hand me downs and meals were only what they could afford, so the meat in their diet was mostly weird low quality stuff. They shared bath water! The lifestyle described is 100% still attainable today. It is your parent's choice not to have grandparents in the house - in line with societal standards today, but certainly not impossible.
    - lm28469 3y ago
      In the tech bubble maybe, but in the real world certainly not. In the golden age you had that as a fancy factory worker, now you have that if you're well paid in a well paid industry Real wages completely flattened since the 70s, and even declined in some western countries, while working hours and retirement age both increased. No one in 2024 supports a family and buys a new home/car on a factory salary, I can't even afford any of that while being in the top 20% earners in Germany, given the average cost per sqm and the current mortgage settings, I could afford a 50sqm house with a 30 years mortgage...
      - xyzelement 3y ago
        // can't even afford any of that while being in the top 20% earners in Germany I ask this as a sincere question - according to Google, 50% of germans live in a home they own, and obviously some Germans are having kids (although the birth rate is horrendous) Who are the people that are buying home and having kids? Are these activities limited to the 1%?
        lm28469 3y ago
        Couples with high income, inheritance, people who live on credit and debt, &c. Not many can afford a new house with a single income, let alone to support a family with kids, maybe not 1% earners but definitely around 10%. A friend of mine has kids, they spend 60% of their household income on the flat they rent (2 salaries, both a good 20% above average for the city), that's before the car, heating, electricity, kids spendings, food, &c. and they're already one hour away from the city center by train There isn't much up for debate I'm afraid: https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ifomkf25BuWY/v0/-1x-1.png https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ifomkf25BuW... https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?id=QDEN628BIS&nsh=1&width=600&height=400 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?id=QDEN628BI... https://www.statista.com/graphic/1/416207/average-annual-wages-germany-y-on-y-in-euros.jpg https://www.statista.com/graphic/1/416207/average-annual-wag... https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carlo-Jaeger/publication/255612076/figure/fig9/AS:669547560452096@1536643986011/Widening-discrepancy-between-wage-ratio-and-productivity-in-Germany.png https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carlo-Jaeger/publicatio... https://www.move.org/app/uploads/2020/04/Home-price-changes-since-1975-1024x572.png https://www.move.org/app/uploads/2020/04/Home-price-changes-...