5 ms·

That may be true, and it may be of personal value to pursue this for yourself. That's different from socially badgering others into it at group events.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
GiorgioG 3y ago
If it bothers you so much don’t go to these events.
- dylan604 3y ago
  Someone's not allowed to go to a sporting event because you say so? That's a load of crap. I'll go to whatever event I want. If they have one of these dear leader performances, I just stand there thinking about whatever is on my mind. If you like it, you can sing your little heart out. But I'm not going to not go to something I enjoy because you might get offended at my non-participation in your cult-like ritual
  - jvanderbot 3y ago
    How did we jump from "this is not mandatory" to "you're not allowed"
    - dylan604 3y ago
      Because the person suggested that I not go to the event. Also, as "not mandatory", have you ever chosen to remain seated and experienced the reaction from those around you? You'll definitely get the feeling "not mandatory" is a very much incorrect description.
      - jvanderbot 3y ago
        I'll quote myself from another comment: > haven't sung a hymn, pledge or anthem since I was 11 or so. I just stand there and watch, be it church, baseball, hockey, whatever. 32 years and nothing bad has happened yet. (Hooray freedom?). I don't believe there is any pressure whatsoever. YMMV, but I do just stand up and not sing. It's not the end of the world. And some people always keep their hand down, instead of over heart. Again, I'm really not experiencing difficulties here, but I respect that there might be other factors. Like, do you live in the deep south?
        romafirst3 3y ago
        Why even stand up?
        efnx 3y ago
        I’m sure your question is rhetorical, but just in case - I think we all know it’s because they want to fit in, or at least… …not get called out for not participating. Yes, it’s not mandatory and yes you _could_ sit down and not sing, but the consequences are that your fellow spectators will be agitated. They may not show it in any way, or… …they might!
        jvanderbot 3y ago
        So, on the larger context of the thread, we started by saying it's weird that we're required to say a pledge or sing a national hymn. I'm saying I haven't done that in 30 odd years and have not suffered any negative consequences, so perhaps the requirement was overstated. The interpretation of my intended message has transformed a bit beyond the original scope to include never standing, not even feeling social pressure of any kind, and a comparison to Colin Capernick who attends sporting events in an entirely different capacity than I do. Those points just sound a lot like trying to win an argument on technicality vs have a discussion about experiences. All I'm saying is you can feel all the pressure in the world to sing a hymn or say a pledge at events, compromise half way by standing, and not sing any national hymn or pledge and suffer no compromises. It is absolutely not required.
  - pests 3y ago
    Then go and experience social pressure while being social? It's your choice.
  - GiorgioG 3y ago
    I never said you weren’t allowed. I said if it bothers you so much you can choose not to attend. My father in law stopped watching sports during the period where it became popular to kneel or not stand during the national anthem to protest or bring to light various social causes. In his view, those things don’t belong in sports. That was his choice, it’s not mine, but he didn’t make a big stink about it, he just chose to stop consuming that form of entertainment. At some point you either conform, choose not to conform and deal with the consequences, or simply avoid these events. The rest of the populace doesn’t have to change their behavior just because you don’t like it. Collectively we have become a society of intolerant crybabies. We don’t have to agree with everyone, but we do have to tolerate the common social norms unless we want to be that guy that gets unwanted attention.
- mtrower 3y ago
  In fact, I generally don't. On the other hand, that is not because I am bothered (or not) by such practices. I'm really not sure what this has to do with the opinions being expressed by myself, parent, and GP here. I can avoid a behaviour and simultaneously have an opinion on the behaviour, which I am expressing here in response to others' opinions on said behaviour.
dgfitz 3y ago
It’s funny, you’d probably not be able to pop off like that if it weren’t for the dead at Ft. McHenry.
- mtrower 3y ago
  ..."pop off"? I get the impression that you're inferring things about me that aren't actually real. Such as a lack of respect for the fallen.
- boomboomsubban 3y ago
  Where would we be without those brave dead who fought in a war we started and didn't win? I guess we wouldn't have Florida...
  - dgfitz 3y ago
    It must be exhausting to constantly filter the world through the lens of political beliefs.
    - boomboomsubban 3y ago
      I could say the same to you, though I struggle to think why you think my political beliefs have warped my understanding of the War of 1812.
      - dgfitz 3y ago
        Why did you bring up Florida?
        boomboomsubban 3y ago
        Because it's territory we gained in the War of 1812.
jvanderbot 3y ago
I haven't sung a hymn, pledge or anthem since I was 11 or so. I just stand there and watch, be it church, baseball, hockey, whatever. 32 years and nothing bad has happened yet. (Hooray freedom?). I don't believe there is any pressure whatsoever.
- mtrower 3y ago
  So in other words, you disagree with the post I'm replying to? > I don't believe there is any pressure whatsoever. You've clearly not been to some of the events that I have. Also, there's the whole matter of various public school systems. Regardless, if there hasn't been any pressure for you, then this is sort of a non-sequitur, as my comment is talking about situations where there is pressure to begin with. Non-pressure situations are out of scope.
  - jvanderbot 3y ago
    > You've clearly not been to some of the events that I have. Ok, such as? > Non-pressure situations are out of scope. I am attempting to say this with respect, believe me: I am saying the pressure is not real. At least in my experience, it's not worth your time. I respect that you may have a different situation than I do, and you may experience pressure of this type differently than I do, but "pressure" strikes me as subjective because in fact there are no real consequences that I'm aware of (as in legal, regulatory, etc). And, without further details, we can freely end here dismissing eachothers' perspectives as irrelevant.
    - mtrower 3y ago
      > socially badgering > pressure is not real. > real consequences that I'm aware of (as in legal, regulatory, etc) So if I understand correctly, the argument is that social pressure isn't real pressure and can be dismissed as inconsequential? If that's the case, then yeah, I think this is played out and we can call it here. (Not because I strongly agree or disagree with such a notion, I just kind of think it would be getting off into the weeds a bit much to continue at that point.)
    - 3y ago
cooper_ganglia 3y ago
I very, very strongly disagree. If you hate the country you reside in so much, don’t show up to those events, or better yet, purchase a ticket to go live somewhere else that better suits you. I don’t have even the slightest bit of tolerance for that kind of apathetic, the-world-revolves-around-me attitude. Sons had their legs blown off so you could be free to whine on an online forum about having to honor them for 60-seconds at sporting events you have the freedom to attend. Truly astounding.
- steezy13 3y ago
  Not following pathological nationalism isn't the same as "hating your country". Saying otherwise is just propagating a false dichotomy. We can be thankful to live in this country without needing to force others to do so as well. In fact, to borrow from your earlier point, we actually have the freedom to hold a different opinion about nationalism/patriotism, unlike many oppressive countries.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

GiorgioG 3y ago

If it bothers you so much don’t go to these events.

dylan604 3y ago
Someone's not allowed to go to a sporting event because you say so? That's a load of crap. I'll go to whatever event I want. If they have one of these dear leader performances, I just stand there thinking about whatever is on my mind. If you like it, you can sing your little heart out. But I'm not going to not go to something I enjoy because you might get offended at my non-participation in your cult-like ritual
- jvanderbot 3y ago
  How did we jump from "this is not mandatory" to "you're not allowed"
  - dylan604 3y ago
    Because the person suggested that I not go to the event. Also, as "not mandatory", have you ever chosen to remain seated and experienced the reaction from those around you? You'll definitely get the feeling "not mandatory" is a very much incorrect description.
    - jvanderbot 3y ago
      I'll quote myself from another comment: > haven't sung a hymn, pledge or anthem since I was 11 or so. I just stand there and watch, be it church, baseball, hockey, whatever. 32 years and nothing bad has happened yet. (Hooray freedom?). I don't believe there is any pressure whatsoever. YMMV, but I do just stand up and not sing. It's not the end of the world. And some people always keep their hand down, instead of over heart. Again, I'm really not experiencing difficulties here, but I respect that there might be other factors. Like, do you live in the deep south?
      - romafirst3 3y ago
        Why even stand up?
        efnx 3y ago
        I’m sure your question is rhetorical, but just in case - I think we all know it’s because they want to fit in, or at least… …not get called out for not participating. Yes, it’s not mandatory and yes you _could_ sit down and not sing, but the consequences are that your fellow spectators will be agitated. They may not show it in any way, or… …they might!
        jvanderbot 3y ago
        So, on the larger context of the thread, we started by saying it's weird that we're required to say a pledge or sing a national hymn. I'm saying I haven't done that in 30 odd years and have not suffered any negative consequences, so perhaps the requirement was overstated. The interpretation of my intended message has transformed a bit beyond the original scope to include never standing, not even feeling social pressure of any kind, and a comparison to Colin Capernick who attends sporting events in an entirely different capacity than I do. Those points just sound a lot like trying to win an argument on technicality vs have a discussion about experiences. All I'm saying is you can feel all the pressure in the world to sing a hymn or say a pledge at events, compromise half way by standing, and not sing any national hymn or pledge and suffer no compromises. It is absolutely not required.
- pests 3y ago
  Then go and experience social pressure while being social? It's your choice.
- GiorgioG 3y ago
  I never said you weren’t allowed. I said if it bothers you so much you can choose not to attend. My father in law stopped watching sports during the period where it became popular to kneel or not stand during the national anthem to protest or bring to light various social causes. In his view, those things don’t belong in sports. That was his choice, it’s not mine, but he didn’t make a big stink about it, he just chose to stop consuming that form of entertainment. At some point you either conform, choose not to conform and deal with the consequences, or simply avoid these events. The rest of the populace doesn’t have to change their behavior just because you don’t like it. Collectively we have become a society of intolerant crybabies. We don’t have to agree with everyone, but we do have to tolerate the common social norms unless we want to be that guy that gets unwanted attention.
mtrower 3y ago
In fact, I generally don't. On the other hand, that is not because I am bothered (or not) by such practices. I'm really not sure what this has to do with the opinions being expressed by myself, parent, and GP here. I can avoid a behaviour and simultaneously have an opinion on the behaviour, which I am expressing here in response to others' opinions on said behaviour.

dgfitz 3y ago

It’s funny, you’d probably not be able to pop off like that if it weren’t for the dead at Ft. McHenry.

mtrower 3y ago
..."pop off"? I get the impression that you're inferring things about me that aren't actually real. Such as a lack of respect for the fallen.
boomboomsubban 3y ago
Where would we be without those brave dead who fought in a war we started and didn't win? I guess we wouldn't have Florida...
- dgfitz 3y ago
  It must be exhausting to constantly filter the world through the lens of political beliefs.
  - boomboomsubban 3y ago
    I could say the same to you, though I struggle to think why you think my political beliefs have warped my understanding of the War of 1812.
    - dgfitz 3y ago
      Why did you bring up Florida?
      - boomboomsubban 3y ago
        Because it's territory we gained in the War of 1812.

jvanderbot 3y ago

I haven't sung a hymn, pledge or anthem since I was 11 or so. I just stand there and watch, be it church, baseball, hockey, whatever. 32 years and nothing bad has happened yet. (Hooray freedom?). I don't believe there is any pressure whatsoever.

mtrower 3y ago
So in other words, you disagree with the post I'm replying to? > I don't believe there is any pressure whatsoever. You've clearly not been to some of the events that I have. Also, there's the whole matter of various public school systems. Regardless, if there hasn't been any pressure for you, then this is sort of a non-sequitur, as my comment is talking about situations where there is pressure to begin with. Non-pressure situations are out of scope.
- jvanderbot 3y ago
  > You've clearly not been to some of the events that I have. Ok, such as? > Non-pressure situations are out of scope. I am attempting to say this with respect, believe me: I am saying the pressure is not real. At least in my experience, it's not worth your time. I respect that you may have a different situation than I do, and you may experience pressure of this type differently than I do, but "pressure" strikes me as subjective because in fact there are no real consequences that I'm aware of (as in legal, regulatory, etc). And, without further details, we can freely end here dismissing eachothers' perspectives as irrelevant.
  - mtrower 3y ago
    > socially badgering > pressure is not real. > real consequences that I'm aware of (as in legal, regulatory, etc) So if I understand correctly, the argument is that social pressure isn't real pressure and can be dismissed as inconsequential? If that's the case, then yeah, I think this is played out and we can call it here. (Not because I strongly agree or disagree with such a notion, I just kind of think it would be getting off into the weeds a bit much to continue at that point.)
  - 3y ago

cooper_ganglia 3y ago

I very, very strongly disagree. If you hate the country you reside in so much, don’t show up to those events, or better yet, purchase a ticket to go live somewhere else that better suits you. I don’t have even the slightest bit of tolerance for that kind of apathetic, the-world-revolves-around-me attitude. Sons had their legs blown off so you could be free to whine on an online forum about having to honor them for 60-seconds at sporting events you have the freedom to attend. Truly astounding.

steezy13 3y ago
Not following pathological nationalism isn't the same as "hating your country". Saying otherwise is just propagating a false dichotomy. We can be thankful to live in this country without needing to force others to do so as well. In fact, to borrow from your earlier point, we actually have the freedom to hold a different opinion about nationalism/patriotism, unlike many oppressive countries.