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That's serveral conjectures on your part. Give me metrics about the minority and then back up the fact that most of those people never wrote a sysinit or rc scr

That's serveral conjectures on your part. Give me metrics about the minority and then back up the fact that most of those people never wrote a sysinit or rc script by hand. Like it or not Systemd breaks the Unix way and for a certain amount of people (I am not pretending to have a measuring stick) the dogma and philosophy are much more important than perceived ease of use or features.

sph 3y ago
All the major distros, especially server distros, run systemd. That is proof enough that NOT running systemd is a niche and unsupported configuration in any half-serious setup. A conjecture is not automatically wrong. The point of a conjecture is to challenge someone else to prove it wrong. You'd have a hard time showing proof that systemd is niche. And honestly, it does not break UNIX, let's be serious now. A haphazard bunch of shell scripts is not much better than a monolithic binary, and UNIX does not give a damn either way. I do not care about dogma and philosophy, I am an engineer with software to run and deadlines to meet.
- e12e 3y ago
  > A haphazard bunch of shell scripts is not much better than a monolithic binary If know shell scripts you can read and adapt the former. You can keep the state in vcs without needing a compile artifact or a compiler. How much work is it to add a bespoke feature to systemd? It's a tradeoff for sure, but let's not pretend simplicity has no benefits. And knowledge of Cron transfers to the bsds.
- Koshkin 3y ago
  > I am an engineer with software to run and deadlines to meet. Sure, but UNIX, with its minimalist philosophy, was - luckily for us! - not created under that slogan. With respect to quality, this slogan has always been the one driving its decrease that we see all around us today.
  - sph 3y ago
    UNIX was created by engineers to run software, not as a philosophical device. Sorry to say, yours is a terrible excuse. I respect that you might not like systemd, no software is perfect and systemd has many flaws, but the "think of the UNIX philosophy" is righteous nonsense that I cannot take seriously. The real world is not black-and-white, with or against us. One of the most beloved UNIX tools, Emacs, is as far removed from the minimalist philosophy that some have decided to be UNIX's crowning achievement. It is not. Linux and UNIX have not won because we're all into minimalism, or dogmatic zealotry.
    - Koshkin 3y ago
      To be fair, "Unix philosophy" was originated by said engineers themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy Speaking of emacs, it was created outside Unix, to be later reincarnated by Stallman as part of his "GNU's Not Unix" project.
op00to 3y ago
Why would I care about "breaking the Unix way"?
- PlutoIsAPlanet 3y ago
  Because people who probably have never used Unix said it's superior.
- Koshkin 3y ago
  Right. Why would one care about principles.
  - op00to 3y ago
    They’re not my principles, and I spent the first 15 years of my career administering real capital U UNIX systems.
  - mardifoufs 3y ago
    Do you care about my principles too? Mine don't involve a Unix philosophy.
- fsflover 3y ago
  It's outlined here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy
  - op00to 3y ago
    I don't care about a 50 year old technology philosophy. Times have changed. Cloud computing and the prevalence of highly distributed systems have completely changed how software is deployed, scaled, and managed. These environments often rely on complex orchestration which can stretch the boundaries of the UNIX philosophy towards systems that are more about interactions between distributed components than about simple, single-purpose tools.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
deleted 3y ago
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sph 3y ago

All the major distros, especially server distros, run systemd. That is proof enough that NOT running systemd is a niche and unsupported configuration in any half-serious setup. A conjecture is not automatically wrong. The point of a conjecture is to challenge someone else to prove it wrong. You'd have a hard time showing proof that systemd is niche. And honestly, it does not break UNIX, let's be serious now. A haphazard bunch of shell scripts is not much better than a monolithic binary, and UNIX does not give a damn either way. I do not care about dogma and philosophy, I am an engineer with software to run and deadlines to meet.

e12e 3y ago
> A haphazard bunch of shell scripts is not much better than a monolithic binary If know shell scripts you can read and adapt the former. You can keep the state in vcs without needing a compile artifact or a compiler. How much work is it to add a bespoke feature to systemd? It's a tradeoff for sure, but let's not pretend simplicity has no benefits. And knowledge of Cron transfers to the bsds.
Koshkin 3y ago
> I am an engineer with software to run and deadlines to meet. Sure, but UNIX, with its minimalist philosophy, was - luckily for us! - not created under that slogan. With respect to quality, this slogan has always been the one driving its decrease that we see all around us today.
- sph 3y ago
  UNIX was created by engineers to run software, not as a philosophical device. Sorry to say, yours is a terrible excuse. I respect that you might not like systemd, no software is perfect and systemd has many flaws, but the "think of the UNIX philosophy" is righteous nonsense that I cannot take seriously. The real world is not black-and-white, with or against us. One of the most beloved UNIX tools, Emacs, is as far removed from the minimalist philosophy that some have decided to be UNIX's crowning achievement. It is not. Linux and UNIX have not won because we're all into minimalism, or dogmatic zealotry.
  - Koshkin 3y ago
    To be fair, "Unix philosophy" was originated by said engineers themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy Speaking of emacs, it was created outside Unix, to be later reincarnated by Stallman as part of his "GNU's Not Unix" project.

op00to 3y ago

Why would I care about "breaking the Unix way"?

PlutoIsAPlanet 3y ago
Because people who probably have never used Unix said it's superior.
Koshkin 3y ago
Right. Why would one care about principles.
- op00to 3y ago
  They’re not my principles, and I spent the first 15 years of my career administering real capital U UNIX systems.
- mardifoufs 3y ago
  Do you care about my principles too? Mine don't involve a Unix philosophy.
fsflover 3y ago
It's outlined here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy
- op00to 3y ago
  I don't care about a 50 year old technology philosophy. Times have changed. Cloud computing and the prevalence of highly distributed systems have completely changed how software is deployed, scaled, and managed. These environments often rely on complex orchestration which can stretch the boundaries of the UNIX philosophy towards systems that are more about interactions between distributed components than about simple, single-purpose tools.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

deleted 3y ago

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