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I lost a bit of respect for them when they did an episode about the placenta and had an apology at the start because the episode contained the word "mother" rat

I lost a bit of respect for them when they did an episode about the placenta and had an apology at the start because the episode contained the word "mother" rather than "pregnant person". I feel if you want to be a great science communicator you can't also insist on using postmodern language which will either confuse or put-off much of your audience.

AlecSchueler 3y ago
What's confusing about the term "pregnant person?" It seems very clear to me and has the benefit of being more inclusive.
- f6v 3y ago
  Because the identity politics has no meaning when we talk about biological phenomenon like pregnancy. We know that only members of female sex can get pregnant. The word “mother” is defined as female parent in a dictionary. So there’s nothing wrong with the term mother in the first place.
  - anaisbetts 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - f6v 3y ago
      As I said, when talking science it’s not “a preference”, rather just stating a fact. I’m not advocating for the usage of exactly the same terms in other settings. Also, there’s a lot of getting offended on behalf of others these days. That’s not something I’m willing to entertain.
      - AlecSchueler 3y ago
        What science are you talking about? Trans fathers exist and are recognised medically. Whose behalf are you offended on now, your own? Do you have a womb or work as a midwife?
      - tootie 3y ago
        Radiolab isn't peer-reviewed research. It's meant to educate and reach as many people as possible.
    - lupusreal 3y ago
      Using weird postmodern language that puts off most people to make a small number of people happy makes for ineffective communication; at least if you're aiming for a mass audience, which science communicators probably should be.
      - AlecSchueler 3y ago
        What's your source that it puts most people off? And is it arguing in good faith to paint your opposition as "weird?"
        lupusreal 3y ago
        If you really believe that most of society prefers "pregnant person" to mothers, I encourage you to step outside your social bubble.
        amalcon 3y ago
        I'm pretty sure most of society does not care, and would not find either terminology noteworthy if it weren't part of a prefix-apology.
        bigbillheck 3y ago
        What's the overlap between "people who choose to listen to NPR" and "gender essentialists"?
        AlecSchueler 3y ago
        I didn't suggest that more inclusive language is the majority preference. I questioned the claim that the majority find it actively off-putting. Personally I don't see that the more inclusive terms harm anybody and I doubt it would make a difference for most people. I also want to say that I find the tone of your response to be quite rude, especially when you're misrepresenting my argument.
        msla 3y ago
        If most people are put off by trans issues, why are most companies using trans pride flags in advertising? Do you think companies are somehow averse to profit now?
    - lllkml 3y ago
      It's on them to build emotional resilience, not for everyone else to erase the word "mother" from their vocabulary.
      - AlecSchueler 3y ago
        No one is suggesting removing the word mother altogether. If someone is a mother then they are a mother. But not every person who is a mother has given birth (adoptive mothers, mothers who are partnered with child bearers) and not everyone who gives birth is a mother (trans men who will be the baby's father).
        ralfd 3y ago
        The word mother never was a problem with adoptive mothers or step-mothers. It shouldn't be for pregnant trans-men. When they are pregnant they do have the mother role as there is no manly masculine way to be pregnant. Later they can have more fatherly role, whatever that means.
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    So it's not confusing, you're actually just opposed to it on a political basis. The word mother is fine but it isn't inclusive for trans men who can also give birth. It's better for their mental health if we use gender affirming language. This is supported by research and the health services of many countries support it. Dictionaries change every year. I think it's better to consider the health and happiness of the people around you than to be slavish to dictionary definitions. Apologies for making this political point on Hacker News, I know it's discouraged. Just felt the need to call out the assertion that the language used was "confusing" as I know we're all smart enough here to understand simple words.
    - fractallyte 3y ago
      In mammals, only the biological female has a womb. That's not "political", it's reality. It sounds like you have an axe to grind...
      - AlecSchueler 3y ago
        In humans, gender is a social construct created on top of sex. It comes with a heap of socio-political norms. Some people feel that the gender assigned to them on the basis of their sex doesn't match the feeling they have about themselves or the way they would like to relate to society. For these people gender affirming language is very important to their quality of life, and their quality of life is directly tied to the well-being of their children. > It sounds like you have an axe to grind... Could you explain what you mean by this?
        Chris2048 3y ago
        > gender affirming language Do the words "male" and "female" affirm gender (as opposed to sex)? If there's some contradiction there, it seems an inherent property to being trans; since in this context "pregnant person" is suggested to be fine, why doesn't the same problem arise there too?
        AlecSchueler 3y ago
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    Consider also that in the case of lesbian couples both parents will be mothers but only one of them will go through the process of giving birth, so it's useful to have language which can account for this distinction. Lesbian couples can become pregnant through co-parenting arrangements, sperm donation and sexual assault.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - sangnoir 3y ago
    Sex and gender are not the same thing. I just checked a couple of dictionaries for "mother" and got a 2:3 mix of variations of "parent who is female" and "parent who is a woman." You selected a definition that aligns with your worldview and make it sound like an unimpeachable, universal truth.
    - f6v 3y ago
      It’s not my world view, it’s the context of my area of interest, where it’s unlikely to be an issue. People can be whatever they want, have my blessing. It’s just the whole “pregnant person” vs “mother” debate started from the scientific podcast. Mixing identity politics and biological phenomena seems a bit excessive. Nobody is trying to offend anyone when they write a Nature paper and use the world “mother”. I don’t think that the attitude of getting triggered by words is a constructive one.

AlecSchueler 3y ago

What's confusing about the term "pregnant person?" It seems very clear to me and has the benefit of being more inclusive.

f6v 3y ago
Because the identity politics has no meaning when we talk about biological phenomenon like pregnancy. We know that only members of female sex can get pregnant. The word “mother” is defined as female parent in a dictionary. So there’s nothing wrong with the term mother in the first place.
- anaisbetts 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - f6v 3y ago
    As I said, when talking science it’s not “a preference”, rather just stating a fact. I’m not advocating for the usage of exactly the same terms in other settings. Also, there’s a lot of getting offended on behalf of others these days. That’s not something I’m willing to entertain.
    - AlecSchueler 3y ago
      What science are you talking about? Trans fathers exist and are recognised medically. Whose behalf are you offended on now, your own? Do you have a womb or work as a midwife?
    - tootie 3y ago
      Radiolab isn't peer-reviewed research. It's meant to educate and reach as many people as possible.
  - lupusreal 3y ago
    Using weird postmodern language that puts off most people to make a small number of people happy makes for ineffective communication; at least if you're aiming for a mass audience, which science communicators probably should be.
    - AlecSchueler 3y ago
      What's your source that it puts most people off? And is it arguing in good faith to paint your opposition as "weird?"
      - lupusreal 3y ago
        If you really believe that most of society prefers "pregnant person" to mothers, I encourage you to step outside your social bubble.
        amalcon 3y ago
        I'm pretty sure most of society does not care, and would not find either terminology noteworthy if it weren't part of a prefix-apology.
        bigbillheck 3y ago
        What's the overlap between "people who choose to listen to NPR" and "gender essentialists"?
        AlecSchueler 3y ago
        I didn't suggest that more inclusive language is the majority preference. I questioned the claim that the majority find it actively off-putting. Personally I don't see that the more inclusive terms harm anybody and I doubt it would make a difference for most people. I also want to say that I find the tone of your response to be quite rude, especially when you're misrepresenting my argument.
        msla 3y ago
        If most people are put off by trans issues, why are most companies using trans pride flags in advertising? Do you think companies are somehow averse to profit now?
  - lllkml 3y ago
    It's on them to build emotional resilience, not for everyone else to erase the word "mother" from their vocabulary.
    - AlecSchueler 3y ago
      No one is suggesting removing the word mother altogether. If someone is a mother then they are a mother. But not every person who is a mother has given birth (adoptive mothers, mothers who are partnered with child bearers) and not everyone who gives birth is a mother (trans men who will be the baby's father).
      - ralfd 3y ago
        The word mother never was a problem with adoptive mothers or step-mothers. It shouldn't be for pregnant trans-men. When they are pregnant they do have the mother role as there is no manly masculine way to be pregnant. Later they can have more fatherly role, whatever that means.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  So it's not confusing, you're actually just opposed to it on a political basis. The word mother is fine but it isn't inclusive for trans men who can also give birth. It's better for their mental health if we use gender affirming language. This is supported by research and the health services of many countries support it. Dictionaries change every year. I think it's better to consider the health and happiness of the people around you than to be slavish to dictionary definitions. Apologies for making this political point on Hacker News, I know it's discouraged. Just felt the need to call out the assertion that the language used was "confusing" as I know we're all smart enough here to understand simple words.
  - fractallyte 3y ago
    In mammals, only the biological female has a womb. That's not "political", it's reality. It sounds like you have an axe to grind...
    - AlecSchueler 3y ago
      In humans, gender is a social construct created on top of sex. It comes with a heap of socio-political norms. Some people feel that the gender assigned to them on the basis of their sex doesn't match the feeling they have about themselves or the way they would like to relate to society. For these people gender affirming language is very important to their quality of life, and their quality of life is directly tied to the well-being of their children. > It sounds like you have an axe to grind... Could you explain what you mean by this?
      - Chris2048 3y ago
        > gender affirming language Do the words "male" and "female" affirm gender (as opposed to sex)? If there's some contradiction there, it seems an inherent property to being trans; since in this context "pregnant person" is suggested to be fine, why doesn't the same problem arise there too?
        AlecSchueler 3y ago
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  Consider also that in the case of lesbian couples both parents will be mothers but only one of them will go through the process of giving birth, so it's useful to have language which can account for this distinction. Lesbian couples can become pregnant through co-parenting arrangements, sperm donation and sexual assault.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- sangnoir 3y ago
  Sex and gender are not the same thing. I just checked a couple of dictionaries for "mother" and got a 2:3 mix of variations of "parent who is female" and "parent who is a woman." You selected a definition that aligns with your worldview and make it sound like an unimpeachable, universal truth.
  - f6v 3y ago
    It’s not my world view, it’s the context of my area of interest, where it’s unlikely to be an issue. People can be whatever they want, have my blessing. It’s just the whole “pregnant person” vs “mother” debate started from the scientific podcast. Mixing identity politics and biological phenomena seems a bit excessive. Nobody is trying to offend anyone when they write a Nature paper and use the world “mother”. I don’t think that the attitude of getting triggered by words is a constructive one.