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Your second statement that the virtual DOM lets you skip unnecessary DOM mutations is true, but the first statement is inaccurate because "DOM" is not equivalen

by Osmose 3y ago

Your second statement that the virtual DOM lets you skip unnecessary DOM mutations is true, but the first statement is inaccurate because "DOM" is not equivalent to "regenerate and replace all the DOM nodes with updated ones". Prior to React, performant apps that weren't using frameworks that regenerated the entire DOM tree would simply manually mutate the DOM nodes based on what it was doing. If your app was loading a new comment, it would find the list of comment nodes and append a new one to it, same as a virtual DOM would. The problem is that this could be error-prone in large apps—are you even sure that the comment list is still on the page? If it's not, do you need to add it to the page or is this a completely new view and you're reacting to a network request that finished after the user navigated away from the page? That's the kind of finnicky manual work that React helped simplify, but the performance was the same as an app manually mutating the DOM plus the extra virtual DOM comparisons.

throwaway11460 3y ago
The usual approach used to be to simply replace entire "component" with updated HTML string returned by a function representing that component. Doing what you're saying was not feasible for large apps, that led to unmaintanable spaghetti code and never really worked correctly - imagine you need to add a feature somewhere and then you have to go into all the other components that rely on that internal structure. I am talking about CRMs and other business apps like that, not some light JS to load blog comments.
- acdha 3y ago
  None of what you’re saying is globally true. It might have been true of the apps you personally worked on but it’s not the case that everyone did HTML string replacement or that using the DOM directly forced you to forget basic software engineering concepts.
  - throwaway11460 3y ago
    It's what was commonly done across more than 10 companies in Europe over a decade I worked in the field. Looking back at the source code of projects back then, it was the normal method.
    - acdha 3y ago
      So say that rather than pretending to speak for the entire web.
      - throwaway11460 3y ago
        I said that. It's faster than the browser DOM operations. Replacing a block of DOM is a DOM operation too.
        acdha 3y ago
        It was faster in the early 2000s. It hasn’t been for the last decade and a half - try it now and be reminded just how bad IE6 was: https://www.quirksmode.org/dom/innerhtml.html https://www.quirksmode.org/dom/innerhtml.html https://segdeha.com/experiments/innerhtml/ https://segdeha.com/experiments/innerhtml/ The thing which was slow is changing more than you need to change. When the React marketing push included performance, that’s almost always what they were comparing it to - someone would have slow code making the same updates multiple times or triggering reflows by forcing the browser to do a partial update to measure something, and then updating again. There’s an argument that the guaranteed overhead of using React is better because it helps the average developer who doesn’t measure performance much do a better job than they might have otherwise, and that can be true for many people but it also tended to get oversimplified to “React is fast” despite widespread evidence to the contrary.
        throwaway11460 3y ago
        We measured performance, but we also measured things like how hard it is to implement a feature or how many bugs we have to fix, and how quickly we can do so. When we jumped on React in 2013, it improved all of these metrics.
- Osmose 3y ago
  You're right that it was difficult, that's part of why React caught on. But lots of apps did it anyway—its not as impossible as you make it seem if you take the time to write some abstractions around checking what needs to be done or centralizing all DOM operations to reduce the chance of other code modifying then. I worked on multiple complex web apps that did things like this. It's just tedious and error-prone.
  - throwaway11460 3y ago
    That's my whole point, though - it was tedious and error prone, so it wasn't usually done. Then React offered an easier and more performance way, that's why everybody jumped on it.
    - Osmose 3y ago
      If your actual point is that "The virtual DOM is faster than a slow-but-common pattern of DOM mutation" then, sure. We have different experiences in how common wiping out the entire DOM really was in apps not using frameworks but differing experiences is normal. But in a comment thread of people saying the virtual DOM is not faster than equivalent manual DOM mutations you can understand why "The virtual DOM was faster than the DOM" got understood differently since it lacked that clarification.
      - throwaway11460 3y ago
        Well that's what React originally compared against. Sure, you could do it the manual, tedious and error-prone way to achieve similar performance, but that's not really interesting to React users.

by Osmose 3y ago

throwaway11460 3y ago

The usual approach used to be to simply replace entire "component" with updated HTML string returned by a function representing that component. Doing what you're saying was not feasible for large apps, that led to unmaintanable spaghetti code and never really worked correctly - imagine you need to add a feature somewhere and then you have to go into all the other components that rely on that internal structure. I am talking about CRMs and other business apps like that, not some light JS to load blog comments.

acdha 3y ago
None of what you’re saying is globally true. It might have been true of the apps you personally worked on but it’s not the case that everyone did HTML string replacement or that using the DOM directly forced you to forget basic software engineering concepts.
- throwaway11460 3y ago
  It's what was commonly done across more than 10 companies in Europe over a decade I worked in the field. Looking back at the source code of projects back then, it was the normal method.
  - acdha 3y ago
    So say that rather than pretending to speak for the entire web.
    - throwaway11460 3y ago
      I said that. It's faster than the browser DOM operations. Replacing a block of DOM is a DOM operation too.
      - acdha 3y ago
        It was faster in the early 2000s. It hasn’t been for the last decade and a half - try it now and be reminded just how bad IE6 was: https://www.quirksmode.org/dom/innerhtml.html https://www.quirksmode.org/dom/innerhtml.html https://segdeha.com/experiments/innerhtml/ https://segdeha.com/experiments/innerhtml/ The thing which was slow is changing more than you need to change. When the React marketing push included performance, that’s almost always what they were comparing it to - someone would have slow code making the same updates multiple times or triggering reflows by forcing the browser to do a partial update to measure something, and then updating again. There’s an argument that the guaranteed overhead of using React is better because it helps the average developer who doesn’t measure performance much do a better job than they might have otherwise, and that can be true for many people but it also tended to get oversimplified to “React is fast” despite widespread evidence to the contrary.
        throwaway11460 3y ago
        We measured performance, but we also measured things like how hard it is to implement a feature or how many bugs we have to fix, and how quickly we can do so. When we jumped on React in 2013, it improved all of these metrics.
Osmose 3y ago
You're right that it was difficult, that's part of why React caught on. But lots of apps did it anyway—its not as impossible as you make it seem if you take the time to write some abstractions around checking what needs to be done or centralizing all DOM operations to reduce the chance of other code modifying then. I worked on multiple complex web apps that did things like this. It's just tedious and error-prone.
- throwaway11460 3y ago
  That's my whole point, though - it was tedious and error prone, so it wasn't usually done. Then React offered an easier and more performance way, that's why everybody jumped on it.
  - Osmose 3y ago
    If your actual point is that "The virtual DOM is faster than a slow-but-common pattern of DOM mutation" then, sure. We have different experiences in how common wiping out the entire DOM really was in apps not using frameworks but differing experiences is normal. But in a comment thread of people saying the virtual DOM is not faster than equivalent manual DOM mutations you can understand why "The virtual DOM was faster than the DOM" got understood differently since it lacked that clarification.
    - throwaway11460 3y ago
      Well that's what React originally compared against. Sure, you could do it the manual, tedious and error-prone way to achieve similar performance, but that's not really interesting to React users.