5 ms·

Why do toothbrushes need to be able to make web connections in the first place? I get that it's for tracking brushing habits, but can't that be done with local

Why do toothbrushes need to be able to make web connections in the first place? I get that it's for tracking brushing habits, but can't that be done with local connectivity only, like LAN or something?

jprete 3y ago
Because the actual business model is selling the aggregated data?
- Gigachad 3y ago
  What data though? How would it be valuable? From what I saw they are getting money from the device sale itself. These iot toothbrushes are like $400 and basically just track brushing time and pressure. Those don't seem like super valuable ad tracking metrics.
  - thaumaturgy 3y ago
    This might be a fun exercise. Let's assume we have the following data: the user's email address, some sort of smartphone identifying value, their ip address, and their brushing habits. That's not very much; who would want that? Well, we know this is a person who will drop $400 on a toothbrush. They like shiny things, they have at least a middle-class disposable income, and they don't mind the headaches of internet-connected devices. Let's sell this information to big-box electronics retailers and other smart appliance manufacturers. Maybe this person would like to buy a $500 toaster too, or espresso machine, or soda machine, or bread machine, or microwave. They care a little bit about oral hygiene. Have they seen a dentist lately? If they have $400 for a toothbrush, then they probably have better than average dental insurance. Let's also sell their information to the larger dental offices in their area (as determined by IP). Do they need mouthwash? Let's pop up an ad for a subscription mouthwash service. How about floss? Would they perhaps also appreciate a razor made out of aerospace titanium? Oh, but wait ... their IP address just changed, and they are brushing their teeth 3 hours later than typical. They're traveling! They're traveling and they took their expensive toothbrush with them. This opens up an entirely new set of possibilities. Travel insurance? A credit card with travel incentives? New luggage? How about offers for travel upgrades? There are hundreds of companies paying for the opportunity to contact pre-qualified customers that travel with disposable income. Oh, wait ... they just bought a set of lightbulbs that we also make...
pmontra 3y ago
I'm with you, but unless the brush stores the data on itself, which appliance should receive those data in a typical home?
- jawns 3y ago
  What's wrong with "the brush stores the data on itself"? Plenty of consumer products do that.
- IncreasePosts 3y ago
  The users phone, via a Bluetooth connection?
  - Gigachad 3y ago
    It's possible but its really unreliable. A device trying to reach out to an app on your phone to proxy the data while your phone is sleeping/app not running just doesn't work that well. You don't want to have to open the app while using the device, you just want all the data to be there when you look in a week. These devices almost always have wifi since the chips usually have both anyway. And reaching out to a fixed wifi is so much more reliable.
    - thomastjeffery 3y ago
      If you have enough room to store WiFi credentials, then you probably have enough room to store toothbrush use statistics. There is no need to copy that data to a phone immediately. It can be put off until it's convenient.
      - Gigachad 3y ago
        And then the user goes out for the day, opens up the app, and wonders why the last 3 days of data is missing. Meanwhile the chip that does Bluetooth also just has wifi bundled in. Aside from the security risk, directly connecting to wifi is a vastly superior experience.
soco 3y ago
Not every toothbrush user has a server at home and the skills to attach to it. I would even say that most of those users had no idea what they enabled when they activated their toothbrushes. And let's not forget about vacuum cleaners, refrigerators, washing machines, coffee makers and the other zillions of "smart" personal data channeling smart appliances. I'd dare a survey, how many HN people actually work on exactly these technologies, how many read these words, and how many actually care?
- kwhitefoot 3y ago
  Just have the toothbrush run a web server and then the user can point a web browser at it. It can also come with a mobile app that would scan the local network looking for the device in order to discover the IP.
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  > I'd dare a survey, how many HN people actually work on exactly these technologies, how many read these words, and how many actually care? This is an excellent question. We'd likely find that there is an enormous disconnect between high IQ, well educated engineers and high emotional and social intelligence. The perennial excuses; "it's just a job" , "everybody's doing it", "if I didn't build <monstrosity x> then someone else would" ... these have grown tiresome and weak. Everybody now knows these are stupid and dangerous things we are doing. Is there a kind of fatalistic malice at work? How do people who work on this kind of thing manage the dissonance?
- samatman 3y ago
  I have several gizmos which use Bluetooth. They're a little bit slower to connect to than the WiFi ones, but they work fine, and "a bit slower to connect" seems fine for a toothbrush. I also have several gizmos, including lightbulbs, which use WiFi. To my chagrin, I've had internet outages which meant that I can't turn on a given light until the Internet comes back. I put up with it, because telling my computer to change the lights is too much fun, but when the internet goes out, I'm embarrassed both personally and professionally. Somehow we've failed as a profession to provide people with a home network which continues to function as long as the router has power, and that sucks.
Gigachad 3y ago
I was at the store looking at them recently and all the toothbrushes advertise having "AI", an app, wifi/bluetooth etc. I guess it's hard to come up with reasonable upsells on this stuff.

jprete 3y ago

Because the actual business model is selling the aggregated data?

Gigachad 3y ago
What data though? How would it be valuable? From what I saw they are getting money from the device sale itself. These iot toothbrushes are like $400 and basically just track brushing time and pressure. Those don't seem like super valuable ad tracking metrics.
- thaumaturgy 3y ago
  This might be a fun exercise. Let's assume we have the following data: the user's email address, some sort of smartphone identifying value, their ip address, and their brushing habits. That's not very much; who would want that? Well, we know this is a person who will drop $400 on a toothbrush. They like shiny things, they have at least a middle-class disposable income, and they don't mind the headaches of internet-connected devices. Let's sell this information to big-box electronics retailers and other smart appliance manufacturers. Maybe this person would like to buy a $500 toaster too, or espresso machine, or soda machine, or bread machine, or microwave. They care a little bit about oral hygiene. Have they seen a dentist lately? If they have $400 for a toothbrush, then they probably have better than average dental insurance. Let's also sell their information to the larger dental offices in their area (as determined by IP). Do they need mouthwash? Let's pop up an ad for a subscription mouthwash service. How about floss? Would they perhaps also appreciate a razor made out of aerospace titanium? Oh, but wait ... their IP address just changed, and they are brushing their teeth 3 hours later than typical. They're traveling! They're traveling and they took their expensive toothbrush with them. This opens up an entirely new set of possibilities. Travel insurance? A credit card with travel incentives? New luggage? How about offers for travel upgrades? There are hundreds of companies paying for the opportunity to contact pre-qualified customers that travel with disposable income. Oh, wait ... they just bought a set of lightbulbs that we also make...

pmontra 3y ago

I'm with you, but unless the brush stores the data on itself, which appliance should receive those data in a typical home?

jawns 3y ago
What's wrong with "the brush stores the data on itself"? Plenty of consumer products do that.
IncreasePosts 3y ago
The users phone, via a Bluetooth connection?
- Gigachad 3y ago
  It's possible but its really unreliable. A device trying to reach out to an app on your phone to proxy the data while your phone is sleeping/app not running just doesn't work that well. You don't want to have to open the app while using the device, you just want all the data to be there when you look in a week. These devices almost always have wifi since the chips usually have both anyway. And reaching out to a fixed wifi is so much more reliable.
  - thomastjeffery 3y ago
    If you have enough room to store WiFi credentials, then you probably have enough room to store toothbrush use statistics. There is no need to copy that data to a phone immediately. It can be put off until it's convenient.
    - Gigachad 3y ago
      And then the user goes out for the day, opens up the app, and wonders why the last 3 days of data is missing. Meanwhile the chip that does Bluetooth also just has wifi bundled in. Aside from the security risk, directly connecting to wifi is a vastly superior experience.

soco 3y ago

Not every toothbrush user has a server at home and the skills to attach to it. I would even say that most of those users had no idea what they enabled when they activated their toothbrushes. And let's not forget about vacuum cleaners, refrigerators, washing machines, coffee makers and the other zillions of "smart" personal data channeling smart appliances. I'd dare a survey, how many HN people actually work on exactly these technologies, how many read these words, and how many actually care?

kwhitefoot 3y ago
Just have the toothbrush run a web server and then the user can point a web browser at it. It can also come with a mobile app that would scan the local network looking for the device in order to discover the IP.
nonrandomstring 3y ago
> I'd dare a survey, how many HN people actually work on exactly these technologies, how many read these words, and how many actually care? This is an excellent question. We'd likely find that there is an enormous disconnect between high IQ, well educated engineers and high emotional and social intelligence. The perennial excuses; "it's just a job" , "everybody's doing it", "if I didn't build <monstrosity x> then someone else would" ... these have grown tiresome and weak. Everybody now knows these are stupid and dangerous things we are doing. Is there a kind of fatalistic malice at work? How do people who work on this kind of thing manage the dissonance?
samatman 3y ago
I have several gizmos which use Bluetooth. They're a little bit slower to connect to than the WiFi ones, but they work fine, and "a bit slower to connect" seems fine for a toothbrush. I also have several gizmos, including lightbulbs, which use WiFi. To my chagrin, I've had internet outages which meant that I can't turn on a given light until the Internet comes back. I put up with it, because telling my computer to change the lights is too much fun, but when the internet goes out, I'm embarrassed both personally and professionally. Somehow we've failed as a profession to provide people with a home network which continues to function as long as the router has power, and that sucks.

Gigachad 3y ago

I was at the store looking at them recently and all the toothbrushes advertise having "AI", an app, wifi/bluetooth etc. I guess it's hard to come up with reasonable upsells on this stuff.