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A crypto enthusiast friend once made that argument to me and it was so baffling. By this logic, we should all leave our lights and air conditioners on while we

by danhak 3y ago

A crypto enthusiast friend once made that argument to me and it was so baffling. By this logic, we should all leave our lights and air conditioners on while we're at work or on vacation because it will increase demand and hasten the transition to renewables.

nightski 3y ago
I'm no crypto enthusiast, but that's not the same argument. You are not moving demand to physical proximity of the renewables in that case, whereas miners claim they can.
- danhak 3y ago
  Friend in question was mining bitcoin out of his NYC co-op apartment on a master electricity meter.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  The correct answer is to connect the energy source to the grid or to do something useful with it at the point of generation. If it's being consumed instead to guess random numbers the economic incentive to do something useful with it is suppressed.
  - foobarian 3y ago
    On the flipside if all resistive load heaters came with a BTC miner they could get some additional utility from the energy.
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      Sure, but the gotcha there is that we shouldn't be using resistive load heaters, they're only 100% efficient. Heat pumps are several hundred percent efficient - 300-600% in fact. Whereas resistive heaters convert electricity into heat directly, heat pumps use energy to move heat against a temperature gradient. The idea that you can be paid to waste this power just creates economic incentives against the improvements we actually need to be making.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    Miners don't really want to use energy only when it's at a surplus though. Because the equipment is expensive and due to the difficulty increasing it's only viable a short time. So this is an argument that also doesn't really fly (and draws attention to another issue; the e-waste)
yrral 3y ago
Leaving stuff on when you are away is completely different than how bitcoin mining demand response works. Firstly, at regular electricity prices, bitcoin mining is profitable and it is profitable for the utility to run renewables (which in turn means it is/was profitable to build renewables). When there is substantial demand or low supply, then it is profitable for the utility to pay the bitcoin miners to turn off, because the alternative to import power is more expensive. This in turn makes your electricity cheaper. In addition, the additional steady state demand for power allows for more renewables to be built, which further increases the supply during low supply periods. Your AC does not automatically turn off when this happens. I am one of those enthusiasts making "strange logic" claims. I've been making this claim well before others but I feel that I keep getting downvoted on them off of people's emotion rather than rational logic. The transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy sources has altered the environmental impact of additional electricity consumption. Where once any increase in consumption was considered harmful due to its reliance on fossil fuels, the rise of renewables introduces scenarios where the marginal environmental cost of electricity can be beneficial if the demand is flexible. Bitcoin mining has the potential to act as a load balancer for the electricity grid. By increasing its energy consumption during periods when renewable energy production exceeds demand, and reducing consumption during peak demand periods, Bitcoin mining could help stabilize the grid and make renewable energy generation more economically viable. Bitcoin mining's demand for electricity is unique in that it is primarily cost-driven. Renewable energy generation capacity is particularly volatile. Bitcoin mining power usage can be flexible and responsive to the availability and cost of electricity. The ability of Bitcoin mining to consume excess renewable energy when it's available (and potentially at low or negative prices) could improve the financial viability of renewable energy projects by increasing the floor price these new projects can sell electricity at. This can encourage the development of additional renewable energy capacity by providing a reliable demand for their output during otherwise unprofitable periods. Here's some examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25444985 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25444985 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26094279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26094279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26811819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26811819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29367174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29367174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30310572 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30310572

by danhak 3y ago

nightski 3y ago

I'm no crypto enthusiast, but that's not the same argument. You are not moving demand to physical proximity of the renewables in that case, whereas miners claim they can.

danhak 3y ago
Friend in question was mining bitcoin out of his NYC co-op apartment on a master electricity meter.
arcticbull 3y ago
The correct answer is to connect the energy source to the grid or to do something useful with it at the point of generation. If it's being consumed instead to guess random numbers the economic incentive to do something useful with it is suppressed.
- foobarian 3y ago
  On the flipside if all resistive load heaters came with a BTC miner they could get some additional utility from the energy.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    Sure, but the gotcha there is that we shouldn't be using resistive load heaters, they're only 100% efficient. Heat pumps are several hundred percent efficient - 300-600% in fact. Whereas resistive heaters convert electricity into heat directly, heat pumps use energy to move heat against a temperature gradient. The idea that you can be paid to waste this power just creates economic incentives against the improvements we actually need to be making.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- wkat4242 3y ago
  Miners don't really want to use energy only when it's at a surplus though. Because the equipment is expensive and due to the difficulty increasing it's only viable a short time. So this is an argument that also doesn't really fly (and draws attention to another issue; the e-waste)

yrral 3y ago

Leaving stuff on when you are away is completely different than how bitcoin mining demand response works. Firstly, at regular electricity prices, bitcoin mining is profitable and it is profitable for the utility to run renewables (which in turn means it is/was profitable to build renewables). When there is substantial demand or low supply, then it is profitable for the utility to pay the bitcoin miners to turn off, because the alternative to import power is more expensive. This in turn makes your electricity cheaper. In addition, the additional steady state demand for power allows for more renewables to be built, which further increases the supply during low supply periods. Your AC does not automatically turn off when this happens. I am one of those enthusiasts making "strange logic" claims. I've been making this claim well before others but I feel that I keep getting downvoted on them off of people's emotion rather than rational logic. The transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy sources has altered the environmental impact of additional electricity consumption. Where once any increase in consumption was considered harmful due to its reliance on fossil fuels, the rise of renewables introduces scenarios where the marginal environmental cost of electricity can be beneficial if the demand is flexible. Bitcoin mining has the potential to act as a load balancer for the electricity grid. By increasing its energy consumption during periods when renewable energy production exceeds demand, and reducing consumption during peak demand periods, Bitcoin mining could help stabilize the grid and make renewable energy generation more economically viable. Bitcoin mining's demand for electricity is unique in that it is primarily cost-driven. Renewable energy generation capacity is particularly volatile. Bitcoin mining power usage can be flexible and responsive to the availability and cost of electricity. The ability of Bitcoin mining to consume excess renewable energy when it's available (and potentially at low or negative prices) could improve the financial viability of renewable energy projects by increasing the floor price these new projects can sell electricity at. This can encourage the development of additional renewable energy capacity by providing a reliable demand for their output during otherwise unprofitable periods. Here's some examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25444985 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25444985 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26094279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26094279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26811819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26811819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29367174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29367174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30310572 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30310572