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Linus Torvalds flames Google kernel contributor over filesystem suggestion
- lucasyvas 3y agoHe's been better in recent memory but this definitely recedes a bit into his prior unhinged territory. Good luck, Steven, wherever you are.
- slau 3y agoThis is on the milder end of the spectrum when it comes to Torvalds’ flames. And I’d argue it’s not entirely undeserved.
- WhackyIdeas 3y agoReally? I mean even if that guy was sneakily trying to implant a bug, I still couldn’t talk to him like that.
- DiggyJohnson 3y agoJust because you can't imagine yourself acting such a way doesn't mean that it falls outside the spectrum of "somewhat acceptable". It just means that you're probably way more careful with your emotions and tone than Linus. There's pros and cons to both, but in general, yea people are different.
- WhackyIdeas 3y agoDid you actually read through the entire thread of emails? I did.
- DiggyJohnson 3y agoYes I did too. What's your point?
- WhackyIdeas 3y agoAt least the maintainer gets paid handsomely to put up with that kind crap. Otherwise, I think I would throttle Linus through the screen.
- krmboya 3y agoI like someone that direct and opinionated leading something as critical as the Linux kernel. That message wasn't just for Steven, but for everyone else who contributes to this critical piece of software we rely on. It's usually very easy for standards to slip, so it requires constant resistance in the opposite direction
- _xerces_ 3y agoI would take it as a point of pride to be on the receiving end of one of Linus' rants. If I have his attention and he is even looking at something I wrote, it lets me know I made it :)
- anaisbetts 3y agoLinus gives these rants (largely) not to people who make mistakes, or who aren't smart, but people who are thoughtless - people who demonstrate that they don't really care, or just are there to drive-by fix Their Thing without any care about the kernel as a whole or how it will affect other people. That's what makes him Mad more than anything else, and that's definitely not the kind of contributor I'd want to be
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y agoI feel the same way, I have immense respect for Linus and can appreciate that he may flame me today and congratulate me tomorrow. It's not personal, it's about the work.
- coolThingsFirst 3y agoWhat if replied with a diss track named “Well, f u too”?
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoThey should be flamed. As a Google kernel contributor they aren't a noob and they should know better.
- thrillgore 3y agoThis is very uncharacteristic of the direction Linus was heading. Damn, Steven must have seriously fucked up. >You copied that function without understanding why it does what it does, and as a result your code IS GARBAGE. AGAIN. I generally believe in positivity but if I saw this as his direct report I'd move him to another project ASAP to get scrutiny on his code quality.
- technofiend 3y ago>I generally believe in positivity but if I saw this as his direct report I'd move him to another project ASAP to get scrutiny on his code quality. I'm not sure I'd start there, but I'd definitely want to understand what problem the person was trying so solve. Might be legit, might be OKR-driven development.
- somerandomqaguy 3y agoThe discussion seems to calm down a little afterwards if you follow the thread. Linus is actually making suggestions for Steven to try in his test setup: https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/2401.3/04995.html https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/2401.3/04995.html
- ametrau 3y agoDo you also think in manager-speak? It’s our downtime, on a news discussion site, why are you still talking in this obnoxious way?
- thrillgore 3y agoThanks for the feedback.
- Boatfaceing 3y ago[dead]
- onyxringer 3y agoOh noeh, but the feels. Is anyone thinking about the feels? Don't cry. The contributor will be fine. If you get flamed by Linus you've already earned a badge of a high profile developer. And even best of us sometimes do something stupid and a little direct cold shower is not going to hurt anyone. Linus is not bulling people, doesn't target them for no reason, doesn't do sneaky politics to undermine people, etc.
- big_paps 3y agoI think this is a good way to look at this.
- DiggyJohnson 3y agoThis doesn't seem like a major problem. If anything it's direct, and a professional should be able to recognize that Linus effing Torvalds has tone problems when it comes to this subject.
- AndrewDucker 3y agoThere is value in demonstrating anger. It makes it clear that the person has crossed a line beyond "Made an understandable mistake." and entered the "Doing things which are beyond what is tolerated in this space." And in this case, where the person has deliberately, repeatedly, tried to use code they don't understand, it makes it clear that they need to either learn enough to be sensible on the topic, or go away and not come back.
- hasty_pudding 3y agoI wish there was more of this in society instead of immense passive aggression we see now days. It's very efficient and to the point.
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y agoright, exactly. Linus has such a clarity of thought that if I disagree with him I have to examine why. Anything else is hubris imo, his track record speaks for itself. Perfect example is his infamous rant on why C++ wasn't used for git. He's a kernel developer, of course that's his opinion. I still love C++ but I'm certainly not offended by it.
- hasty_pudding 3y agowhat did he use?
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y agogit was implemented in C. Someone asked him why he didn't choose C++ for it and he went on a rant basically saying C++ was bad, people that use it are subpar programmers, and that one of the advantages of choosing C is to weed out people who think C++ would have been a good choice. oddly enough I can't seem to find the original rant, if someone can provide that I'd be greatful. edit: to give context to my original post, Linus is a kernel developer, he's going to value things that the vast majority of developers don't because he's dealing with problems that the vast majority of developers don't.
- adastra22 3y agoThe amount of support give by other posters here for Linus’ insane antisocial behavior is crazy. I would never, ever contribute upstream to Linux so long as Linus is involved. My time is too valuable to deal with his BS. He should realize the hostile environment he creates drives away contributors.
- wetpaws 3y ago[dead]
- AlienRobot 3y agoI wouldn't call it "insane antisocial behavior." I have no idea what his personal life is like, but managing the Linux source code isn't socializing, it's a job. You could say he's not very professional in this job, but he isn't doing this to make friends and get along with everybody.
- adastra22 3y agoYou are right that it is also unprofessional. But this is open source where social considerations also apply.
- WhackyIdeas 3y agoI agree, it is shocking. And with my other comments being downvoted, it’s incredible that people are so up his arse that they live in a bubble thinking that it’s ok to belittle someone like that. Imagine working under someone like that… wow.
- db48x 3y ago> …it’s ok to belittle someone… Did we read the same email? He only commented about how bad the code is; he said nothing about the person who wrote it.
- mkehrt 3y agoYeah, the replies here are all nuts. Linus is acting like a child. It's completely inappropriate of him to treat anyone like this.
- ChrisArchitect 3y ago[dupe] News from a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39172487 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39172487
- Amorymeltzer 3y agoI really suggest looking at the reply: <https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/2401.3/04254.html https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/2401.3/04254.html> I know nothing about what they're talking, but the response appears reasonable and mature, seems to engage in the substantive issues without responding to the anger/flaming, and looks like it intends to de-escalate and move forward. Torvalds' reply to that is more measured <https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/2401.3/04260.html https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/2401.3/04260.html>. There's a step back in tone a few replies later, but if you go through the next dozen or two messages over the next couple of days, it seems like things go a totally different path than might be expected from the linked submission. Anyway, I thought it was worth a perusal. Good example of how to respond to something like that.
- riku_iki 3y ago> but the response appears reasonable and mature I wouldn't say saying "If I knew ... was going to piss you off so much, I wouldn't have done that." is very mature.
- solarkraft 3y agoWhy? It signals that they respect Linus's feelings (and they really don't want to piss him off), which seems quite mature and de-escalative to me.
- youngtaff 3y agoWhy f#ck would anyone ever want to contribute to the Linux kernel when you’re in danger of being on the receiving end of a rant like that…
- tekla 3y ago[flagged]
- stairlane 3y agoSomeone could use a chill pill. But in all seriousness, this point does stand valid in my opinion. Various facets of society react and communicate differently. For example, death threats are just a part of the job for game developers (insane, yes - but a regular thing). If you can’t stomach it, then get out for your own sake. No need to burden yourself with someone else’s inability to process their own emotional response in a mature way. Linus is notorious for his responses in the past being on par with the death threats video gamers throw at their game devs. Personally life is too short to burden yourself with someone like that.
- thdespou 3y agoBecause the stakes are high. Nevertheless you shouldn’t take this personally.
- scrubs 3y agoYep. Essentially what Linus is saying is that he has got to have more time, more competence, more vigilance that he wants because the other side can't or won't. And it's a recurring problem. Sometimes we want more control and can't get it. Frustrating. Sometimes senior people are sick and tired of control and want less. Frustrating!
- youngtaff 3y agoWell he should learn to communicate in away that doesn’t appear like he’s treating the other person like an idiot
- 3y ago
- saltylicorice 3y agoSteven Rostedt has a long history of kernel contributions before joining Google and is likely better known for those.
- s-xyz 3y agoAmazing and without the emotional part, very relatable arguments that I have seen also in other domains.
- __turbobrew__ 3y agoI take it as a badge of honour for being flamed by Theo de Raadt. If you are being flamed it means that you are doing something worth engaging with. Take it with a grain of salt and cut through the negativity to find valid criticisms which help you grow.
- coolThingsFirst 3y agoHow hard is nowadays getting some code merged in the kernel?
- nunez 3y agoPrint this out and frame it! This is a really good Linus rant!
- anon-sre-srm 3y agoLook at all of the apologists here. Unconstructive, unprofessional, bully behavior is unnecessary, but the cult defers to Herr Leader.